Ex-service personnel

[pauli007001]

You possibly haven't been here long enough to know that Pauli will make all kinds of claims that various people said all kinds of things in past posts, whereas in fact they've not said any such thing...... If you're not careful, the rest of the thread will then be along the lines of "yes you did, no I didn't", getting further and further away from the original topic! Right Pauli?

If i posted off topic you would hit me with an infraction.
Everything that I mentioned from TETE was true, he said them and more, of course he then deleted them with the caption "no longer relevant", it is a fact, just the same as your desire to criticise squaddies is a symtom of hatred for squaddies, same as the imagined disease of PTSD is simply a stick to beat squaddies with, it is all Hate.

[pauli007001]

*sticks fingers in ears*
LA LA LA LA LA

Oh very mature, but what else can one expect from a person who claimes to have faith in a backward dog who never did anything for anyone.
Faith in God, i have more faith in an actual Dog and a Dog will at least bring me my newspaper, God wont, not even in the fairy tales that people made up about him, perhaps you could make up a few fairy tales about this God thing.

Personally i have faith in the big green flying spagetti monster who created Italian food in his Image, but made some of the italian food a different colour so that the tagliatelle tricollore could spend years arguing about which colour was superior, Green? Red ? White?I see a veritable pasta race war on the horizon, we all know though in this war the entire Tagliatelle race will be overtaken by the Polenta whatever the colour is, polenta is the master race of all pastas(followed closely by Potato Gnocci) it can be eaten as part of the main meal or as a Dessert, how awesome is that??

Now how can God or government compete with Polenta??????

[pauli007001]

So we have established that i am completely correct,in your silence it has been noted that you have accepted your distemperate hatred of all the military and that many claims are made up to paint former servicemen in a negative light.

They are just like anyone else, human beings, pity you all wish to deny them any human dignity!!

[pauli007001]

Not at all, for example( as previously stated) a physical test can be made to diagnose Parkinsons, Alzheimers and demential with Lewy bodies, there is physical evidence of the condition be it a lack of dopamine in the brain, lewy bodies in the brain or simply fewer braincells.
Diabetes can be diagnosed when the body stops braking down sugars but PTSD has NO PHYSICAL means to prove it exists.How is PTSD diagnosed, what characteristics does the illness have?
If the person diagnosed had not served in the military what would the diagnosis be?

No answer?
I rest my case, it is an invented condition used as a stick to beat down former members of the Armed forces by those who hate them.

[pauli007001]

Pauli, PTSD is an existing diagnosis.
What is P.T.S.D
Or perhaps you are now Doctor Pauli, are you?

Ok I have never claimed to be a DR but i dispute the methods for diagnosing PTSD, what are the charecteristics of the disease, what pointers are used to determine if it is PTSD.What physical symptoms does it have, if the subject of the diagnosis had never been in the military what then would we call the condition?

I am correct here, you cannot answer my questions and resotr to mockery, sarcasm and insult when you are incapable of figuring out an answer.Oddly enough if you had served in the military a Trick cyclist may use this as evidence to diagnose PTSD, however as you didnt they would invent some other label for it.

JUst a small insignificant point though a DR wouldnt be able to diagnose PTSD that would require the knowledge and skills of a psychologist...That and a multi disciplinary team of experts in the fields of psychiatry and psychcotherapy.

But of course you know better, god talks to you about it, right?

[pauli007001]

People do not have PTSD, perhaps you could tell me what are the physical manifestations of the condition (what do DRs use to diagnose PTSD), what changes are observed in the Brain.
In Alzheimers there is a noticable slowing of brain function due to the reduction in cells, it can be measured physically.

In DLB the Dewy Bodies can be measured.

In parkinsons the levels of dopamine are seen to fluctuate.

What Physical manifestation is used to diagnose PTSD, or is it just a bit of guess work by a quack?

Many Psychiatrists will admit that their branch of medcine is more art than science and that treatment is based more on guess work and trial and error than exact chemical science!!

Anything?
NO?

I guess i have proved my point, god it is hard being perfect!!

[Binnman]

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us all as to what the soldiers in WW1 & 2 were suffering from, which in those days was referred to as "shell shock"?

[pauli007001]

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us all as to what the soldiers in WW1 & 2 were suffering from, which in those days was referred to as "shell shock"?

How would I know, im not a Doctor.Shell shock had physical effects, tremors and shaking etc, perhaps caused by damage to the brain caused by the concussive wave from the explosions of artilliary fire at close hand.

What method is used to diagnise PTSD, i answered your question now you answer mine or admit that i am correct.

[Binnman]

How would I know, im not a Doctor.Shell shock had physical effects, tremors and shaking etc, perhaps caused by damage to the brain caused by the concussive wave from the explosions of artilliary fire at close hand.

What method is used to diagnise PTSD, i answered your question now you answer mine or admit that i am correct.

Admit that you're correct about what????????? You have said that there is no PTSD, yet agree that Shell Shock exists............................THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME, not all Shell Shock victims displayed physical ailments;

Posttraumatic stress disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[pauli007001]

Admit that you're correct about what????????? You have said that there is no PTSD, yet agree that Shell Shock exists............................THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME, not all Shell Shock victims displayed physical ailments;

Posttraumatic stress disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Proove it.I have clearly shown that it cannot be diagnosed with science, only guess work and prejudice.It is a made up condition, Shell shock had physical characteristics including spasmodic jerking of the body, tremors etc.What are the physical charecteristics of PTSD?

How is it diagnosed?

I await your sidestepping again

[Binnman]

Now I appreciate that your a self made man who worships his creator - but be very clear on one thing. This is not a court of law and I have no requirement to prove hee-haw to you or anyone else.

Google PTSD/Shell Shock links, there's 13,200 links............................that should keep your perfect self busy for a while

[pauli007001]

Now I appreciate that your a self made man who worships his creator - but be very clear on one thing. This is not a court of law and I have no requirement to prove hee-haw to you or anyone else.

Google PTSD/Shell Shock links, there's 13,200 links............................that should keep your perfect self busy for a while

Nice sidestepping, like i said i am correct, PTSD is an invented condition, no one can describe it or show its exact symptoms, it dosnt exist!

[Binnman]

Go use google like I suggested, there's plenty of opinions from Doctors who are far more qualified than thee and me

[pauli007001]

Go use google like I suggested, there's plenty of opinions from Doctors who are far more qualified than thee and me

I am asking you to explain it, i have looked it up and have seen that PTSD is an invented condition, it cannot be diagnosed with facts, it can be guessed at based on whether the person presenting with no symptoms has been in the military or not.
If one presented with the same set of charecteristic behaviours linked to PTSD yet had never served in the military, what would be the diagnosis?No DR can answer that one, what is your opinion, or are you simply spouting off like you have a clue but then backing off when questioned on the content?

[Binnman]

I am asking you to explain it, i have looked it up and have seen that PTSD is an invented condition, it cannot be diagnosed with facts, it can be guessed at based on whether the person presenting with no symptoms has been in the military or not.
If one presented with the same set of charecteristic behaviours linked to PTSD yet had never served in the military, what would be the diagnosis?No DR can answer that one, what is your opinion, or are you simply spouting off like you have a clue but then backing off when questioned on the content?

In my opinion PTSD is not just a "military" ailment. Traumatic events have differing effects on folks. I spent 32 years as a cop, seeing and experiencing things which (fortunately) most folks do not. Over the years, one becomes hardened to the sights, sounds and smells - the same can be said for Military Personnel experiencing their second and subsequent tours in harms way. (My military experience was limited to Royal Air Force Reserve duties, so I was lucky). Over the years I did however, witness numerous cops having to leave the job, because they had "lost their bottle" (as it was so nicely put then). The reasons for their leaving were many and varied, i.e. being assaulted once too often, seeing a mangled corpse once too often etc. etc.

Again, (in my opinion) the fact that a traumatic event caused those officers sufficient stress, that they could no longer function in their particular career can only be laid at the door of PTSD.

An officer I worked with was seconded to Lockerbie for recovery operations. Despite counselling, he had to leave. A friend of my wife, was the 3rd Paramedic to enter Dunblane Primary School - she's now working as a physio and still having nightmares all these years later.

After all, PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) means exactly what it says on the tin. A stress disorder following a traumatic event. We're all different, we all cope differently (I smoke and have been known to get rat a*sed) - some beat the crap out of their spouse, but many just cannot cope. Should they be cast onto some scrap heap because PTSD cannot be seen on an X-ray, or detected in a Blood test?

We're all Jock Thomsons bairns, but at the same time, we're all different

[pauli007001]

Cops quitting due to stress?Yeah Teachers used to do that, it was a great way for them to get their pension at 45 instead of 50.

I still havnt seen my main point addressed.What ate the symptoms of PTSD?
From what i have read they are a mish mash of symptoms put together and blamed on the person depending on his/ her experiences.

If no traumatic event had occoured what would the quacks blame those symptoms on?
If the claims of the quacks are true I suffer from PTSD because i drink (a little) daily, i have nightmares each night and I have developed a dislike for being in crowded places, i far prefer hanging out in my 270 acres of recreational land in Maine.
Some of my dreams are related to my service( photograohing the mass graves in Kosovo is a regular one, i did that for 6 months) others are related to my work( which has risks) none are related to traumatic events in my life.Nothing related to being under fire in Afghanistan for a longer period, nothing to do with being afraid, dreams are normal, my wife tells me she dreams about high school or her work all the time, so it is normal to dream, unless my wife who has led a life free from trauma also has PTSD???
It is not a genuine condition, for the cops who quit, thats simply because they cannot handle it or wish to find an easier job.
Oddly enough some claim that losing ones bottle is a sign of PTSD others say that another sign of PTSD is losing ones fear, how contradictory is that?

[Binnman]

Cops quitting due to stress?

Yes Paul, cops quitting due to stress! After thorough medical proceedures and examinations (it costs money to retrain replacements after all).

What I seem to be getting from your posts is an "I don't have PTSD so no one else can have it!" attitude.

That speaks of an ego that knows no bounds

[Opinionated]

Cops quitting due to stress?Yeah Teachers used to do that, it was a great way for them to get their pension at 45 instead of 50.

I still havnt seen my main point addressed.What ate the symptoms of PTSD?
From what i have read they are a mish mash of symptoms put together and blamed on the person depending on his/ her experiences.

If no traumatic event had occoured what would the quacks blame those symptoms on?
If the claims of the quacks are true I suffer from PTSD because i drink (a little) daily, i have nightmares each night and I have developed a dislike for being in crowded places, i far prefer hanging out in my 270 acres of recreational land in Maine.
Some of my dreams are related to my service( photograohing the mass graves in Kosovo is a regular one, i did that for 6 months) others are related to my work( which has risks) none are related to traumatic events in my life.Nothing related to being under fire in Afghanistan for a longer period, nothing to do with being afraid, dreams are normal, my wife tells me she dreams about high school or her work all the time, so it is normal to dream, unless my wife who has led a life free from trauma also has PTSD???
It is not a genuine condition, for the cops who quit, thats simply because they cannot handle it or wish to find an easier job.
Oddly enough some claim that losing ones bottle is a sign of PTSD others say that another sign of PTSD is losing ones fear, how contradictory is that?

Pauli you are expecting psychology to be an exact science, it isn't and it cannot be because it's dealing with the psyches of individuals, hence when confronted with similar traumas people will react differently. Very few psychological conditions can be diagnosed with facts (as you put it) with the possibly exception of pschyzophrenia. I actually wonder if you are confusing PTSD with Gulf War Syndrome.

[Barry]

Pauli, your symptoms sound more like Generalised Anxiety Disorder.
... but of course, I am not a doctor.

[pauli007001]

Pauli you are expecting psychology to be an exact science, it isn't and it cannot be because it's dealing with the psyches of individuals, hence when confronted with similar traumas people will react differently. Very few psychological conditions can be diagnosed with facts (as you put it) with the possibly exception of pschyzophrenia. I actually wonder if you are confusing PTSD with Gulf War Syndrome.

No PTSD post traumatic stress disorder.
Many mental illnesses are capable of being diagnosed with science rather art.

I have a mate a former Royal Marine NCO who became a clinical psychologist, he once wrote a thesis on PTSD and how ptsd could be used as an explanation for the mindset of all criminals during the committing of their crimes.He also wrote that many criminals released on bail could recommit crimes due to PTSD from the stress of their arrest and being charged.His thesis was somewhat tounge in cheek, basically saying how any set of circumstances could be sold as any condition in the mental health field.He has gone on to challenge some diagnosis made by other psychologists.His opinions are based on all the usual suspects when it comes to the mental health field.It is indeed an interesting concept.

Trial and error is a more effective way of diagnosing and treating mental illness or conditions, all conditions are treatable by repairing the chemical imbalance that causes the symptoms, no chamical imbalance no condition, no condition a behavioral disorder is a choice.

[pauli007001]

That is utter rubbish Pauli, and you well know it! I can't see why anyone would want to join the armed forces, nor do I agree that as a country we should be involved in either Iraq or Afghanistan. I also have concerns about the psychological state of a lot of troops when they come off active service and are back into the wider society, but all that's a far cry from saying "I hate the troops"!!

You disagree with the deployment and blame the troops for it. sounds like hate to me, you hate the troops for doing what you elected people to order them to do.......Yup you hate the troops, you are a vitriolic troop hater, but you hate veterans more, why not have your NULAB bosses Gas the veterans?Youd love that wouldnt you?

[Jim Franklin]

I don't think he made any unfair claims. Ex service personnel suffer from a variety of disorders in many cases. They have a higher chance of becoming addicted to drugs, being involved in violence and going to prison. While many also suffer injuries, both mental and physical, from the battlefield. The military service also attracts certain personalities, which, in general, are often not condusive to normal society. For example one of my teachers was ex-army, and a complete bastard who bullied students and didn't see fit to do his job properly.

And you would be an expert reading "NAZI times" by torchlight under your bed being protected by your Mummy whilst these Guys are out there winning, protecting and dieing for the freedom you have to spout this rubbish.

I have buried 9 former colleagues since 2002. I have stopped going to funerals simply because I am tired of putting people in the ground. I served for 14 years of ACTIVE service whilst I also held down a civilian life. Yes I was a Reserve, but being a Para you don't sit about and camp, you augment the active regular Battalions and take part in operations. I saw much crap in that time, and I had to balance these experiences with civilian life. I don't suffer from PTSD because I am a cold hearted bastard when I want to be, but most people are not like me and it gets to them, then in civvy life you have numpties talking piffle like you, or they are moaning about stupid stuff, taking time off work with "stress" because their cat died or their Girlfriend saw sense and dumped them, they don't know the meaning of the word STRESS until the bullets fly and you fighting to stay alive and keep your mates alive.

As far as I am concerned the Government, and I mean successive ones, have broken the innate contract they have with soldiers and other service personnel, to take care of them once their service is over. This covenant is critical, dismiss those who protect and serve, and your dismissing society as a whole. There are too many armchair commentators on this subject who think because they watched Band of Brothers, played Medal of Honour or some other **** like this they are experts.

If you want to be an expert, get off you ass, pick up a weapon and fight for your country and the rights you so freely take for granted..then perhaps you will understand how we all think.

[Expounder]

IMO people in the armed force often have or become very dependent personalities. They would have trouble thinking and acting on their own, which obviously is not a good thing in any real employment. I believe that they should stay in the armed forces as long as possible, and there should be benefits to keep them in the forces. One major thing we need to do is work out how to mitigate instances of PTSD. I don't see any real solution apart from that, unless we somehow design some work areas that cater to post-army personnel.

Nice Idea to keep them in as long as possible but in my opinion the longer the lower ranks stay in, the more army institutionalised they become. For most[not all] their youthful naivety and enthusiasm declines they become more cynical and army wise and it's not what the top brass want. They like a regular turn over of young recruits and weed out the best by retaining the higher ranking long serving NCOs to train them.

[DC]

And you would be an expert reading "NAZI times" by torchlight under your bed being protected by your Mummy whilst these Guys are out there winning, protecting and dieing for the freedom you have to spout this rubbish.

I have buried 9 former colleagues since 2002. I have stopped going to funerals simply because I am tired of putting people in the ground. I served for 14 years of ACTIVE service whilst I also held down a civilian life. Yes I was a Reserve, but being a Para you don't sit about and camp, you augment the active regular Battalions and take part in operations. I saw much crap in that time, and I had to balance these experiences with civilian life. I don't suffer from PTSD because I am a cold hearted bastard when I want to be, but most people are not like me and it gets to them, then in civvy life you have numpties talking piffle like you, or they are moaning about stupid stuff, taking time off work with "stress" because their cat died or their Girlfriend saw sense and dumped them, they don't know the meaning of the word STRESS until the bullets fly and you fighting to stay alive and keep your mates alive.

As far as I am concerned the Government, and I mean successive ones, have broken the innate contract they have with soldiers and other service personnel, to take care of them once their service is over. This covenant is critical, dismiss those who protect and serve, and your dismissing society as a whole. There are too many armchair commentators on this subject who think because they watched Band of Brothers, played Medal of Honour or some other **** like this they are experts.

If you want to be an expert, get off you ass, pick up a weapon and fight for your country and the rights you so freely take for granted..then perhaps you will understand how we all think.

Umm, why did you call me a Nazi? I was merely pointing out that both mental illness and addictance to substances is far more common in ex-service personnel than the civilian population. What's more the army does attract certain kinds of people. Bullying is rampant through the Australian Army, leading to a recently high publicised suicide. Fundamentally the army does attract people who would normally be considered bullies in civilian life, but these people excel in the armed services. Now you can talk about how we should be grateful to soldiers, and we are, but that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the problems they face, both individually and as the whole armed forces.

[Jim Franklin]

Umm, why did you call me a Nazi? I was merely pointing out that both mental illness and addictance to substances is far more common in ex-service personnel than the civilian population. What's more the army does attract certain kinds of people. Bullying is rampant through the Australian Army, leading to a recently high publicised suicide. Fundamentally the army does attract people who would normally be considered bullies in civilian life, but these people excel in the armed services. Now you can talk about how we should be grateful to soldiers, and we are, but that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the problems they face, both individually and as the whole armed forces.

That may be true in Australia, and to say there were no bullies in the British military would be wrong, but in general it is not true. Bullies are not tolerated and are dealt with. Further, in the UK, as a percentage of the population, ex service personnel are less likely to be involved in violent crime, drug dealing, drug abuse and suffer mental illness (They are facts from the Office of national Stats). Of course there are those that go off the rails, and fall into bad behaviour, but in all honesty these are people who may have anyway. Equally there are those who may have fallen into this type of behaviour were it not for joining the services.

Why did I call you a NAZI....well what type of Fascist are you then?

[pauli007001]

Umm, why did you call me a Nazi? I was merely pointing out that both mental illness and addictance to substances is far more common in ex-service personnel than the civilian population. What's more the army does attract certain kinds of people. Bullying is rampant through the Australian Army, leading to a recently high publicised suicide. Fundamentally the army does attract people who would normally be considered bullies in civilian life, but these people excel in the armed services. Now you can talk about how we should be grateful to soldiers, and we are, but that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the problems they face, both individually and as the whole armed forces.

Provide evidence to support your negative attacks on ex service personnell?

Drugs for example, go out in any town and city in the UK on a weekend, the idiots who are banged up on every drug are usually civvies.
I have worked in the mental health field and have nursed 2 former soldiers(one who never completed basic training), I have nursed several thousand civvies.

Where is the evidence to support your attack on ex service personell or is this more Puffery?

[pauli007001]

IMO people in the armed force often have or become very dependent personalities. They would have trouble thinking and acting on their own, which obviously is not a good thing in any real employment. I believe that they should stay in the armed forces as long as possible, and there should be benefits to keep them in the forces. One major thing we need to do is work out how to mitigate instances of PTSD. I don't see any real solution apart from that, unless we somehow design some work areas that cater to post-army personnel.

Rubbish, rubbish and more rubbish, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.Outside of training or deployment the Army is a part time job, most squaddies today have second careers running parallel to their army career, I was a full time soldier and when i was not deployed I worked between 1 and 5 hours a week, the rest of the time i worked in my second job at a Local forensic psychiatric secure unit.
Like i said, i know, you do not.

[Kiwi 1691]

Where is the evidence to support your attack on ex service personell or is this more Puffery?

There was no attack in that post.

An attack on soliders is like:

Soldiers are baby killers

That is an attack. What he said was not an attack.

[DC]

That may be true in Australia, and to say there were no bullies in the British military would be wrong, but in general it is not true. Bullies are not tolerated and are dealt with. Further, in the UK, as a percentage of the population, ex service personnel are less likely to be involved in violent crime, drug dealing, drug abuse and suffer mental illness (They are facts from the Office of national Stats). Of course there are those that go off the rails, and fall into bad behaviour, but in all honesty these are people who may have anyway. Equally there are those who may have fallen into this type of behaviour were it not for joining the services.

This particular article is old, but one quoted source says that Alcohol abuse is higher in the (US) military than in the civilian population. Alcohol Abuse in the Military
Now that's from 2000, prior to both Afghanistan and Iraq.
This article states that that rate has in fact risen even more since 2003. Alcohol abuse by GIs soars since '03 - USATODAY.com

I am finding it difficult to find specific statistics on drug abuse, could you link me the ONS stats?

In regards to the mental illness, that's almost certainly incorrect. In 2008 a report showed that 20% of (US) soldiers returning from duty suffered some form of PTSD (which despite Pauli's insistance, is a mental illness), and I see no reason that that would be different in the UK, although it may be better as my understanding is that the UK treats veterans better in general than the US.

Soldiers in fact have a higher chance of developing PTSD and possibly other mental illnesses at a biological level as well (plus their stressful enviroments). In combat situations soldiers recieve small 'mini concussions' when nearby to an explosion or large calibre gun. These small concussions compound to weaken the brain's ability to recover from stressful events (among other things). The only other demographic to which this is endemic to is American Footballers and Rugby players, who recieve similiar small concussions on a regualr basis.

Why did I call you a NAZI....well what type of Fascist are you then?

Not a Nazi one. The Nazis were to Fascism what the Bolsheviks were to Communism, essentially they were a group who adopted the broad philosphy of Fascism, but added on they're own twists and policies to it.

[pauli007001]

Firstly, an American scource on Alchohlism is hardly reliable, half the country think an alcoholic is a person who ever had a Drink, a suspected Alchoholic is a person who looked in the window of the Liquor store when he walked past!!

The UK treats veterand better than the US?????

I was a UK veteran and suffered life changing Injuries, I was threatened with murder by an NHS worker ( just for doing my job) I retired in 2003, my military pension was given to my Ex wife, as was my military disability pension.

The US invests huge amounts of rescourses into the Department of Veterans affairs and the VA hospitals they run.Us Veterans are treated with respect and gratitude by the people.UK vets are reviled and detested by the people.

All of your unfounded claims are false, un prooven opinions, Puffery in fact.

[pauli007001]

There was no attack in that post.

An attack on soliders is like: That is an attack. What he said was not an attack.

An attack is falsely claiming that squaddies are Drug addicts and nutters, which he indeed claimed, without evidence, it was Puffery based on his dislike of a particular group in society, Soldiers and former soldiers, he knows nothing of the subject and spouts his hatred.

PTSD is not a Mental Illness, perhaps a chat with an expert on the matter will help Him to understand that, for now he should understand(if able) that an Illness is TREATABLE, PTSD is not treatable.

[DC]

Firstly, an American scource on Alchohlism is hardly reliable, half the country think an alcoholic is a person who ever had a Drink, a suspected Alchoholic is a person who looked in the window of the Liquor store when he walked past!!

Irrelavent, as my point was that alcohol abuse was higher in the military than among civilians.

The UK treats veterand better than the US?????

I was a UK veteran and suffered life changing Injuries, I was threatened with murder by an NHS worker ( just for doing my job) I retired in 2003, my military pension was given to my Ex wife, as was my military disability pension.

The US invests huge amounts of rescourses into the Department of Veterans affairs and the VA hospitals they run.Us Veterans are treated with respect and gratitude by the people.UK vets are reviled and detested by the people.

Again, I said that was my understanding of the situation. In the US a wide variety of issues face verterans, most notably under-funded hospitals, a policy of keeping both drug abuse and mental illness under the carpet (which is why I suspect I'm having difficulty finding stats) among other things. At a public perception level I do accept that in most parts of the US soldiers would be treated better, mostly due to the 'patriotism' in many communities.

[Don]

In regards to the mental illness, that's almost certainly incorrect. In 2008 a report showed that 20% of (US) soldiers returning from duty suffered some form of PTSD (which despite Pauli's insistance, is a mental illness), and I see no reason that that would be different in the UK, although it may be better as my understanding is that the UK treats veterans better in general than the US.

Soldiers in fact have a higher chance of developing PTSD and possibly other mental illnesses at a biological level as well (plus their stressful enviroments). In combat situations soldiers recieve small 'mini concussions' when nearby to an explosion or large calibre gun. These small concussions compound to weaken the brain's ability to recover from stressful events (among other things). The only other demographic to which this is endemic to is American Footballers and Rugby players, who recieve similiar small concussions on a regualr basis.

I have long thought that the current high rate of PTSD is, at least in part, due to the accelerated operational tempo due to Iraq and Afghanistan. In ten years of military service I had two combat tours, I know guys now who have 3 or 4 or more in much less time. It wears on you mentally and physically and one affects the other.

[Don]

Irrelavent, as my point was that alcohol abuse was higher in the military than among civilians.


Again, I said that was my understanding of the situation. In the US a wide variety of issues face verterans, most notably under-funded hospitals,

The problem, as it appears with VA hospitals and treatment centers in the US, is the sheer size of the patient base that must be accommodated. These hospitals are still treating former soldiers from as far back as WWII and it's not only retirees that they treat. Even though I only served ten years active, I can still qualify for VA treatment, if I so chose, I do not because I have excellent private insurance as my wife works for a hospital. That adds up to one hell of a lot of patients spanning the ages of roughly 18 to 90 or so. That said, for the most part the VA does an excellent job of serving that client base. One thing that has helped greatly is the construction of smaller treatment centers in outlying areas. It used to be that VA patients from my area had a small local clinic but for major procedures and tests had to travel to the nearest VA hospital over 100 miles away, now they have an enlarged local treatment center/clinic to take some of the strain off the patient and the system.

From the VA web page:

About a quarter of the nation's population is potentially eligible for VA benefits and services because they are veterans, family members or survivors of veterans.
The responsibility to care for veterans, spouses, survivors and dependents can last a long time. Two children of Civil War veterans still draw VA benefits. About 184 children and widows of Spanish-American War veterans still receive VA compensation or pensions.

VA's fiscal year 2009 spending is projected to be approximately $93.4 billion, including $40 billion for health care, $46.9 billion for benefits, and $230 million for the national cemetery system. This is more than a 7 percent increase from the department’s $87.6 billion budget for fiscal year 2009.

With an estimated population of 306 million that's a possible patient base of 75 million or so. I haven't looked up the numbers, but I would imagine that the system for caring for vets in the UK pales in comparison as to size, in any category you would care to choose.

[pauli007001]

Irrelavent, as my point was that alcohol abuse was higher in the military than among civilians.


Again, I said that was my understanding of the situation. In the US a wide variety of issues face verterans, most notably under-funded hospitals, a policy of keeping both drug abuse and mental illness under the carpet (which is why I suspect I'm having difficulty finding stats) among other things. At a public perception level I do accept that in most parts of the US soldiers would be treated better, mostly due to the 'patriotism' in many communities.

You can find no credible evidence because you are making this **** up!!!
No proof has been offered then to support any of your claims, All made up, you have no credibility at all, now go and spout your hatred elswhere you bigot!!

[pauli007001]

So show me evidence to support your made up claim that PTSD is a MENTAL ILLNESS??

I anticipate a whole bunch of crap being posted none of which will support your completely false claim, not one competent professional in the fields of psychiatry or psychology will offer support for your insane and borderline learning disabled theory.

[Jim Franklin]

So show me evidence to support your made up claim that PTSD is a MENTAL ILLNESS??

I anticipate a whole bunch of crap being posted none of which will support your completely false claim, not one competent professional in the fields of psychiatry or psychology will offer support for your insane and borderline learning disabled theory.

Actually Pauli, PTSD is classed as a Mental Illness, it is an emotional condition that sometimes follows a traumatic event, particularly an event that involves actual or threatened death or serious bodily injury to oneself or others and that creates intense feelings of fear, helplessness, or horror. The symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder include the reexperiencing of the trauma either through upsetting thoughts or memories or, in extreme cases, through a flashback in which the trauma is relived at full emotional intensity. The predominant sections of society that have been diagnosed with PTSD are those in Military Service, specifically combat experienced troops, but many sufferers have been identified in those who deal with life threatening experiences or extremely stressful situations on a regular basis as part of their work. Generally this last group includes Fire Fighters, Paramedics and Police Officers, but members of the public have also been diagnosed with the condition after experiencing terrorist events.

However, one must always be careful with the tag "mental illness" due to the connotations such a tag holds and this can have negative effects on sufferers. It is commonly believed that PTSD is incurable, but with effective, tailored and constant help, most sufferers live a normal life and their co-workers, family and even friends do not know they have been diagnosed.

Psychotherapy

All the effective psychotherapies for PTSD focus on the traumatic experiences that have produced your symptoms rather than your past life. You cannot change or forget what has happened. You can learn to think differently about it, about the world, and about your life.

You need to be able to remember what happened, as fully as possible, without being overwhelmed by fear and distress. These therapies help you to put words to the traumatic experiences that you have had. By remembering the event, going over it and making sense of it, your mind can do its normal job, of storing the memories away and moving on to other things.

If you can start to feel safe again and in control of your feelings, you won't need to avoid the memories as much. Indeed, you can gain more control over your memories so that you only think about them when you want to, rather than having them erupt into your mind spontaneously.

All these treatments should all be given by specialists in the treatment of PTSD. The sessions should be at least weekly, every week, with the same therapist, and should usually continue for 8-12 weeks. Although sessions will usually last around an hour, they may sometimes last up to 90 minutes.

Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) is a way of helping you to think differently about your memories, so that they become less distressing and more manageable. It will usually also involve some relaxation work to help you tolerate the discomfort of thinking about the traumatic events. For further information, see our factsheet on CBT.

EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation & Reprocessing) is a technique which uses eye movements to help the brain to process flashbacks and to make sense of the traumatic experience. It may sound odd, but it has been shown to work.

Group therapy involves meeting with a group of other people who have been through the same, or a similar traumatic event. The fact that other people in the group do have some idea of what you have been through can make it much easier to talk about what has happened.

What is important is not the label we give to it, but how we respect and help those who suffer from this debilitating condition.

[pauli007001]

Actually Pauli, PTSD is classed as a Mental Illness, it is an emotional condition that sometimes follows a traumatic event, particularly an event that involves actual or threatened death or serious bodily injury to oneself or others and that creates intense feelings of fear, helplessness, or horror. The symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder include the reexperiencing of the trauma either through upsetting thoughts or memories or, in extreme cases, through a flashback in which the trauma is relived at full emotional intensity. The predominant sections of society that have been diagnosed with PTSD are those in Military Service, specifically combat experienced troops, but many sufferers have been identified in those who deal with life threatening experiences or extremely stressful situations on a regular basis as part of their work. Generally this last group includes Fire Fighters, Paramedics and Police Officers, but members of the public have also been diagnosed with the condition after experiencing terrorist events.

However, one must always be careful with the tag "mental illness" due to the connotations such a tag holds and this can have negative effects on sufferers. It is commonly believed that PTSD is incurable, but with effective, tailored and constant help, most sufferers live a normal life and their co-workers, family and even friends do not know they have been diagnosed.



What is important is not the label we give to it, but how we respect and help those who suffer from this debilitating condition.

The evidence you posted confirms exactly what i have said, it is an emotional condition, not a form of lunacy or idiocy as many have claimed here, the therapy is as i have stated is offering the option to choose to react differently to traumatic events and associated memories.

If Emotions are evidence of Insanity are mourners at a funeral a bunch of nutters, happy brides are psychotic whack jobs and people who have feelings are ****ing woof baht donkey fruit loops????

PTSD is a label given to a choice of behaviour some people choose based on memories of events that have occoured, quite simple really(in my own words).Often when people are advised of the condition( i have spoken to Army quacks about this on a couple of occasions) they are told that you cant change what has happened, but you can controll how you react to it, if you dont like the label of(PTSD) then change the way you behave because of your past.Thats it in a nutshell, another method was take a few weeks off, get loaded drunk with your mates and get over yourself, for most folk it worked very well.
Emotion is not Mental Illness!!!

[Jim Franklin]

The evidence you posted confirms exactly what i have said, it is an emotional condition, not a form of lunacy or idiocy as many have claimed here, the therapy is as i have stated is offering the option to choose to react differently to traumatic events and associated memories.

If Emotions are evidence of Insanity are mourners at a funeral a bunch of nutters, happy brides are psychotic whack jobs and people who have feelings are ****ing woof baht donkey fruit loops????

PTSD is a label given to a choice of behaviour some people choose based on memories of events that have occoured, quite simple really(in my own words).Often when people are advised of the condition( i have spoken to Army quacks about this on a couple of occasions) they are told that you cant change what has happened, but you can controll how you react to it, if you dont like the label of(PTSD) then change the way you behave because of your past.Thats it in a nutshell, another method was take a few weeks off, get loaded drunk with your mates and get over yourself, for most folk it worked very well.
Emotion is not Mental Illness!!!

Mental means of the mind, Illness implies something is wrong..therefore an emotional response that has a profoundly negative effect on someone's life is a mental illness, but it does not mean they are mad.

PTSD is a label given to a choice of behaviour some people choose based on memories of events that have occoured, quite simple really(in my own words)

I think that says more about your mental state than anything else. I only have one word for someone who thinks like this...MUPPET!

When you have a qualification in Psychology and papers published in your name proving your right and the world of Psychiatry is wrong I will change my mind, but until then I shall continue to think of you as a total fool who spouts nonsense about something he clearly knows nothing about. You should stick to ink blots....more up your street.

[pauli007001]

Mental means of the mind, Illness implies something is wrong..therefore an emotional response that has a profoundly negative effect on someone's life is a mental illness, but it does not mean they are mad.



I think that says more about your mental state than anything else. I only have one word for someone who thinks like this...MUPPET!

When you have a qualification in Psychology and papers published in your name proving your right and the world of Psychiatry is wrong I will change my mind, but until then I shall continue to think of you as a total fool who spouts nonsense about something he clearly knows nothing about. You should stick to ink blots....more up your street.

!6 Years in the Army, diagnosed with PTSD on 2 occasions, both times the PSYCHOLOGISTS (note Not psychiatrists, pyschiatrists diagnose MENTAL Illness psychologists diagnose psychological conditions) reversed their diagnosis based on my arguments.
I also Have 5 years experience working with mentally disordered offenders, as an NA and later as a D Grade RMN. But OK I will bow to your superior knowledge, you know more about psychiatry and PTSD and mental illness in general than I do, you must have spent 17+ years in the Military with more operational experience than I, have worked in the field of Mental health for 5 years(1 of which as an RMN( still valid, i kept up with all the required annual demands by the appropriate boards in the UK)). But You Know better cos you can say Muppet, which is definatly evidence of your knowledge.But mine is still bigger than yours and i can piss far higher up the wall than you can.

Basically what I am saying is you dont know **** about PTSD, the Military or anything else, now off you go and pick your nose or something you vile and offensive creature.

[Opinionated]

Some off topic posts have been moved and a new thread on Fascism and Communism started here.

[Jim Franklin]

!6 Years in the Army, diagnosed with PTSD on 2 occasions, both times the PSYCHOLOGISTS (note Not psychiatrists, pyschiatrists diagnose MENTAL Illness psychologists diagnose psychological conditions) reversed their diagnosis based on my arguments.
I also Have 5 years experience working with mentally disordered offenders, as an NA and later as a D Grade RMN. But OK I will bow to your superior knowledge, you know more about psychiatry and PTSD and mental illness in general than I do, you must have spent 17+ years in the Military with more operational experience than I, have worked in the field of Mental health for 5 years(1 of which as an RMN( still valid, i kept up with all the required annual demands by the appropriate boards in the UK)). But You Know better cos you can say Muppet, which is definatly evidence of your knowledge.But mine is still bigger than yours and i can piss far higher up the wall than you can.

Basically what I am saying is you dont know **** about PTSD, the Military or anything else, now off you go and pick your nose or something you vile and offensive creature.

Pauli, I was 14 years with 10 Para and during that time I saw active service with both 3 Para and 6 years with 1 Para. I was involved in actions in Iraq (Two Tours), Macedonia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone and numerous other locations that I probably am barred from speaking about in public. I know of two Guys that have been diagnosed with PTSD in one form or another due to experiences in combat.

One of the roles I performed was security when a roadside bomb detonated. Have you ever had to guard a perimeter to keep EVERYONE out except engineers looking for secondary devices meant for Medical Personnel...and you can hear people dieing and there is NOTHING you can do about it...and on one occasion it was a bus taking 7-11 year old too school. You don't have to speak Farsi to understand the kids were screaming for their parents as they died in agony.

I am lucky, all I got out of all my years experience of seeing the worst of my species behaviour was a bad temper that I did not once have. I am intolerant of bull****ters and people who spout rubbish generally. However one of the Guys I know was seriously badly affected by his experiences in Sierra Leone, Kosovo and Iraq. He does not do drugs, drink alcohol, but he cannot hold a job down as he has flashbacks and ends up collapsing into a flood of tears. People think he is nuts, when he is not. 80 years ago he would have been told he had "Shell Shock", but in this more enlightened age they call all such conditions by an umbrella name of POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER. This is not an individual condition or affliction, but the catch all description for psychological effects caused by extreme trauma or repeated exposure to violence with a danger of personal death.

Does this condition make a sufferer mad..absolutely not..though it can drive people that way..but it is a mental illness. Depression is a mental illness, Stress is legally a mental illness, even though I personally think most people who take time off work for "stress" are simply loafers, they have no idea what stress really is.

Now instead of making yourself look even more arrogant and stupid by your reactionary posts, might I suggest you do some proper research on the subject and moderate your tone.

Incidently, what unit were you in??

[pauli007001]

Pauli, I was 14 years with 10 Para and during that time I saw active service with both 3 Para and 6 years with 1 Para. I was involved in actions in Iraq (Two Tours), Macedonia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone and numerous other locations that I probably am barred from speaking about in public. I know of two Guys that have been diagnosed with PTSD in one form or another due to experiences in combat.

One of the roles I performed was security when a roadside bomb detonated. Have you ever had to guard a perimeter to keep EVERYONE out except engineers looking for secondary devices meant for Medical Personnel...and you can hear people dieing and there is NOTHING you can do about it...and on one occasion it was a bus taking 7-11 year old too school. You don't have to speak Farsi to understand the kids were screaming for their parents as they died in agony.

I am lucky, all I got out of all my years experience of seeing the worst of my species behaviour was a bad temper that I did not once have. I am intolerant of bull****ters and people who spout rubbish generally. However one of the Guys I know was seriously badly affected by his experiences in Sierra Leone, Kosovo and Iraq. He does not do drugs, drink alcohol, but he cannot hold a job down as he has flashbacks and ends up collapsing into a flood of tears. People think he is nuts, when he is not. 80 years ago he would have been told he had "Shell Shock", but in this more enlightened age they call all such conditions by an umbrella name of POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER. This is not an individual condition or affliction, but the catch all description for psychological effects caused by extreme trauma or repeated exposure to violence with a danger of personal death.

Does this condition make a sufferer mad..absolutely not..though it can drive people that way..but it is a mental illness. Depression is a mental illness, Stress is legally a mental illness, even though I personally think most people who take time off work for "stress" are simply loafers, they have no idea what stress really is.

Now instead of making yourself look even more arrogant and stupid by your reactionary posts, might I suggest you do some proper research on the subject and moderate your tone.

Incidently, what unit were you in??

Moderate My tone? Ha You can sure hurl abuse but you cry like a Girly when its given back, now offensive and abusive one, go and follow your own advice, moderate your tone.As for research, I did plenty on operation and in my Civvy career studying to become an RMN, perhaps you should read what is posted.I have explained and posted evidence from one former RM commando who has become an expert on PTSD but i guess you know better.

[Jim Franklin]

Moderate My tone? Ha You can sure hurl abuse but you cry like a Girly when its given back, now offensive and abusive one, go and follow your own advice, moderate your tone.As for research, I did plenty on operation and in my Civvy career studying to become an RMN, perhaps you should read what is posted.I have explained and posted evidence from one former RM commando who has become an expert on PTSD but i guess you know better.

Whatever Pauli....are you going to answer my question, what unit were you in. I know loads of Marines as I lived in Bournemouth and Poole for several years. A Good friend who is now a Probation Office was in the RMC Unarmed Combat Display Team...till his shoulders and knees couldn't take it anymore..still he lasted 23 years!

So come on...which Commando unit....and did you do any SBS training?

[pauli007001]

Whatever Pauli....are you going to answer my question, what unit were you in. I know loads of Marines as I lived in Bournemouth and Poole for several years. A Good friend who is now a Probation Office was in the RMC Unarmed Combat Display Team...till his shoulders and knees couldn't take it anymore..still he lasted 23 years!

So come on...which Commando unit....and did you do any SBS training?

Never was I in the Marines, where did you get that one?

Be a good lad and re read what i wrote you may actually get it!!

Now as for units, from 1987 until 1991 I was with 3 para then i left (mostly due to boredom), i had some difficulty finding work in the UK that payed enough to live so I travelled around a bit earning what I could where I could after a couple of years at this (whilst still on the flag).I got sick of the civvy life in the UK and other places and re enlisted in 1993 this time in 1DWR, i have served in many of the places you mentioned with my Regt and other units. I left again (not by choice) in 2003.

[Jim Franklin]

Never was I in the Marines, where did you get that one?

Apologies, misread your previous post where you mentioned a RM Commando...

Now as for units, from 1987 until 1991 I was with 3 para then i left (mostly due to boredom), i had some difficulty finding work in the UK that payed enough to live so I travelled around a bit earning what I could where I could after a couple of years at this (whilst still on the flag).I got sick of the civvy life in the UK and other places and re enlisted in 1993 this time in 1DWR, i have served in many of the places you mentioned with my Regt and other units. I left again (not by choice) in 2003.

Seems like we may have been ships that passed in the night.

I originally joined the old 22 Para in November 1984 and didn't do much other than training, training, training. In 1986 they sent me over to do training with 7 Para Engineers (Due to being an apprentice electrical engineer in civvy st)..the fools taught me how to build bombs etc out of everyday materials under the sink etc...In 1988 we had some serious family shiite that I did not want to be part of, took a holiday to Canada to stay with a friend..stayed until the autumn of 1993. In 1994 I was convinced by an old family friend who was a Regular Colonel to rejoin, but due to changes etc I went back in 10 Para...at first they were going to make me do P Coy again...I almost had a heart attack...but then Frosty pulled a few strings and it was "forgotten". Initially I worked fro Frosty, he arranged a promotion and things went well, then his role changed and I was RTU. This was when I initially did extra training and deployment with 3 Para. Must have done it right as I was later told I was going to be sent to train with 1 Para and returned to active status. Initially that should have been 12 months...turned into 6 years and many campaigns. In 2004 I went to the MOD HQ where Frosty was no based to be an Admin for him...required a rank and so he pulled another string..I was happy filling in paperwork, mostly customs docs for CQB teams guarding GS personnel when deployed overseas or on trips, mostly it was simple, but a nightmare if they chose to use commercial flights. When all the shiite hit the fan in early 2006 about the Guys not having enough Body Armour etc, I was tasked with going to Basra and compiling a report to ensure all the CQB teams in theatre and the GS had the correct and up to date equipment (Don't you love the priorities of the Politicals!). After I had had finished my report I was waiting for the flyboys to take me back to Bahrain for a commercial flight home, but a Para Captain in charge of a Search and Detention/Security detail fell down some concrete steps (allegedly after drinking some home brew) and managed to bust his pelvis...as the only spare Captain they had there I was ordered to take over his unit....thank christ SGT Bob Jefferies and the Guys knew what they were doing cos initially I had no idea as I had never been trained in this aspect of the job..Still it was 5 1/2 "interesting months". When I returned I was told that " I had impressed some important faces and they felt that my services would be better utilised with a regular regiment on a full tour in Afghanistan". I gave this some careful consideration and spoke to colleagues and friend (In and out of the services) and came to the conclusion my heart was not in it anymore. I was almost 41 and certainly not as fit or enthusiastic as I once was...Iraq was a hard lesson and coming on the heels of other hard operational deployments where I learnt how cruel our species can be, I took the decision to resign my commission and left.

I have been criticised, sometimes severely, for my decision, but after Iraq I knew I was not as good as the Regular Guys and that Afghanistan was a whole different ball game to Iraq by 2006. I had to way up not only the risk to me, but the risk I would be putting the Guys too I was deployed with and I was not prepared to take that risk. Yes my experiences previously played a major part in my decision making process, but the potential of what could happen was at least 30% of it too.

Now I am simply enjoying my life as a Dad...

[coalition]

In her comments to a recent blog by Don, Uncon said "One thing has interested me this week and that is the huge numbers of ex forces people who are currently in prison here. To me that says that we are failing to look after skilled and disciplined people upon their return from service. It is a disproportionate percentage, and with that in mind it takes me back to those who are basically enforcing the 'lock em away mentality towards petty criminals....how about we look after our ex service personell and use them to help deal with the problem via teaching discipline? Just a thought".

I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on this subject; are we as a society failing our ex-service personnel once they leave the armed forces and return to civilian life or should the finger of blame (assuming we think there is blame) be pointed at the armed forces themselves for often dehumanising their personnel in times of conflict then returning them to society without having made any attempts to rehumanise them?

I can only speak of the few direct experiences I've had with ex-service people in an employment situation, which has been less than successful and in the three instances that we've employed ex-army people, we've had to terminate their employment because they were simply not up to using their initiative and working independently. I have heard from business colleagues in other companies who've also employed ex-service people that they've had similar problems. I'm sure these people aren't lacking in intelligence or work ethic and can only put their failing down to years of unreversed brainwashing in the forces to only do what they're told. If this is something which is true of a substantial number of ex-service personnel, it's perhaps little wonder than so many of them are jobless with all the consequential problems which can be associated with that.

So much of this is 'false disjunction' if A is not the answer then form B must be the answer. It is equally used when addressing remarks about the disabled and those on benefits. What soldiers are really well trained to do is to spot the frauds and the fantasists. Our ex- soldiers are well suited to police work, prison warder, probation local - central gov. and /or security work, partiicularly when these enterprises were operated by former service personell. Two distinct factors have altered the situation:

Firstly, many of the above jobs have mostly been gifted to private spiv agencies who do not want well trained and experienced, more costly, workers, when they can get away with using cheap untrained staff, often immigrants, and charge five times the rate a directly employed person would cost. Bugger it, it is only taxpayers money and they always get us tickets to the Races/Football/ Opera etc.

Secondly: There are no jobs, now hear this there are no jobs. Forget the Downing st B/S, this political dirt use metephor when they say there are 2 million vacancies, they omit to add, in China.

Thirdly: We do find it difficult to work around the under paying/overcharging crooks, fiddlers and manipulators who stayed at home.

In my time, a year prior to demob, soldiers were offered skill training at Catterick, I recall an Admiral learning to stuff an antique commode, the courses were Bricklaying, Carpentary, Electrics and Electronics. Many went on to be honest and good value tradesmen.

The unlucky casualities, unwaged soldiers, are a malise of your society, not our care for our men's welfare.

[Jim Franklin]

So much of this is 'false disjunction' if A is not the answer then form B must be the answer. It is equally used when addressing remarks about the disabled and those on benefits. What soldiers are really well trained to do is to spot the frauds and the fantasists. Our ex- soldiers are well suited to police work, prison warder, probation local - central gov. and /or security work, partiicularly when these enterprises were operated by former service personell. Two distinct factors have altered the situation:

Firstly, many of the above jobs have mostly been gifted to private spiv agencies who do not want well trained and experienced, more costly, workers, when they can get away with using cheap untrained staff, often immigrants, and charge five times the rate a directly employed person would cost. Bugger it, it is only taxpayers money and they always get us tickets to the Races/Football/ Opera etc.

Secondly: There are no jobs, now hear this there are no jobs. Forget the Downing st B/S, this political dirt use metephor when they say there are 2 million vacancies, they omit to add, in China.

Thirdly: We do find it difficult to work around the under paying/overcharging crooks, fiddlers and manipulators who stayed at home.

In my time, a year prior to demob, soldiers were offered skill training at Catterick, I recall an Admiral learning to stuff an antique commode, the courses were Bricklaying, Carpentary, Electrics and Electronics. Many went on to be honest and good value tradesmen.

The unlucky casualities, unwaged soldiers, are a malise of your society, not our care for our men's welfare.

Well said Coalition.....10000% spot on.

[coalition]

Appreciated, T.U.

In a world besieged by dirty little wars, full of evil, dangerous and mostly insane people, not always too far removed from the palace of westminister, we did our duty. When one of my Former NCO's got in touch with me for advice: he had bought his council flat on an Estate only to find that his proportion of the management fees were doubled in 4 months, the other bugouts on the estate paid nader, he even worked as a carpenter for the same council. And, these people ask US why we find it difficult to cope in the rotten sewer they have managed to forge while we were away.They do say you get used to any smell, in time.

[pauli007001]

So who agrees with me that the OP on this thread is an attack on the former members of the armed forces by Midas?

He has on this and other threads argued that ex forces personell are all criminals, Insane, useless, lazy and stupid and makes up silly little anecdotes to attempt to prove his point.His opinions do not stand up to serious scrutiny, because they have no merit.
Oh i think he also called them a bunch of drunkards and druggies.Dougie G calles former and current service people Bullies, violent criminals and people who go into schools to steal lunch money from little kids.

Are they completely correct in their claims or are they haters of the first order??