Originally Posted by Tantal

That's because some people have no concept of "right" vs. "wrong". They prefer to live their entire lives in the "nuanced" gray areas. I like the way Bush put it. Either stand with us on principle or stand against us on principle. Either way, be prepared for the consequences.

That's a dictatorial announcement and it belongs in the realms of despotism.

You will no doubt take exception to people who accuse the US of a global hegemonic intent but seem to be an ardent supporter of it yourself.

The US does not have the monopoly on what is deemed right or wrong.....in fact with regards to world opinion they are on their own on just about everything that matters.

" Why does the world hate us ? " is the cry from many Americans and your replies here give a good example of why that is the case.

Originally Posted by Tantal

That's because some people have no concept of "right" vs. "wrong". They prefer to live their entire lives in the "nuanced" gray areas. I like the way Bush put it. Either stand with us on principle or stand against us on principle. Either way, be prepared for the consequences.

I don't believe you can be quite as dogmatic as "for us" or "against us". Life as a whole isn't black and white, there's a complete spectrum of colours in between, and I'd suggest that most thinking people who look at what's behind the majority of the areas of discontent and dissatisfaction in the world will be able to see pros and cons from both sides. IMO effectively forcing people to pick A over B without allowing them to express their disquiet on whatever A's policies might be is as bad as whatever B might have done to rile A. Quite frankly politicians who use this tactic as a means to bludgeon people to support their own ends irrespective of the rights and wrongs should be ashamed of themselves.

Originally Posted by Spartacus

That's a dictatorial announcement and it belongs in the realms of despotism.

You will no doubt take exception to people who accuse the US of a global hegemonic intent but seem to be an ardent supporter of it yourself.

There's nothing despotic about the statement, mine or Bush's. It simply says to pick a side before the game starts.

Originally Posted by Tantal

There's nothing despotic about the statement, mine or Bush's. It simply says to pick a side before the game starts.

Of course it's despotic , Hitler might have said it before he invaded Poland.
It claims that the US has authority over the world, the tyrannical world rule from Washington.
So far the US administration has ripped up the Geneva Convention , acted unilaterally , bypassing/ignoring the UN , etc etc.what is it if it is not national totalitarianism declaring war on the international community ??
In fact , if you were to apply the standards set at Nuremberg , the US administration would be guilty of the same war crimes the Nazis were hung for

You are isolated in world opinion................... that should tell you something.

Global bullies whos people should be ashamed of their country's actions.

Originally Posted by Spartacus

Of course it's despotic , Hitler might have said it before he invaded Poland.
It claims that the US has authority over the world, the tyrannical world rule from Washington.
So far the US administration has ripped up the Geneva Convention , acted unilaterally , bypassing/ignoring the UN , etc etc.what is it if it is not national totalitarianism declaring war on the international community ??
In fact , if you were to apply the standards set at Nuremberg , the US administration would be guilty of the same war crimes the Nazis were hung for

You are isolated in world opinion................... that should tell you something.

Global bullies whos people should be ashamed of their country's actions.

Yup you are right,the American people instead of defending themselves against attack from terrorists should instead thank Alquaida for all their kindness?????
Global Bullies?
The UN is an anti american entity whose main goal is the destruction of the USA!!!!I think the USA should pull out of the UN and tell the rest of the world to go to hell.Whatever the USA does is wrong.Didnt go to Bosnia,not doing its share,Did go to Kosovo(to satisfy international demands)Interfering?Damned if they do damned if they dont appears to be the way it is!!!!!
As for Nuremburg etc,you are completely wrong there,The Nazis were the agressors hence they were guilty of war crimes,the USA is Defending itself in accordance with the Geneva conventions and all international standard relating to Armed conflict,in many cases the rules are more than obayed,this is why so few deaths occour in the US war on terror,the USA goes above and beyond the rules of armed conflict to preserve life!!!!!!
I suppose though the fact that the USA has not ordered all its citizens to wait in line to be ritually executed by crazed Islamic Fundimentals in the middle east is evidence of the USAs bully boy tactics?The world hates the USA,so what?The world has hated the USA since i can remember,if no reason was apparent one was made up,still is,i think it is jealosy after all The USA is the wealthiest nation on earth,its people have the highest standard of living,greatest wealth and most freedom,yup,Jealosy!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Spartacus

You are isolated in world opinion................... that should tell you something.

The fact that the world is filled with despots, terrorists, appeasers, and cowards is not our problem. We, as a nation, shouldn't intentionally make ourselves weak to give other nations the appearance of strength. It's pretty simple, really. If the U.K. didn't want to assist us with the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, ya'll should've stood on your principles and told us "no". Regardless of what Bush said, do you really think we would have invaded the U.K. for failure to support us militarily in these wars? Bush's point was that a nation cannot take our foreign and military aid and have access to our commercial markets while simultaneously working for our defeat or hindering our prosecution of terrorists and their supporters. He did not mean that anyone that didn't assist us militarily would be a target for military action, as you would like to have people believe.

Originally Posted by Tantal

The fact that the world is filled with despots, terrorists, appeasers, and cowards is not our problem.

Perhaps not directly, however the indirect consequences surely are your problem as long as you try to play the world's unwanted and unasked-for policeman. I also doubt that there are many Americans who could hand on heart say that the US government/CIA hasn't itself covertly engineered situations in order to directly cause 'problems' which the US can unilaterally jump on militarily to try to reap rich commercial rewards!

Originally Posted by Midas

Perhaps not directly, however the indirect consequences surely are your problem as long as you try to play the world's unwanted and unasked-for policeman.

I'm sure you'll hold that position until the Germans or Russians start gazing covetously to the west. Many of our "police actions" are due to international pressure. Then there's the whole defeat of communism thing, but the younger generations have already forgotten about that, and, thanks to our public school systems, are already starting to embrace Marx again.

The world loves to complain about us, but just wait until something major breaks loose. There'd be hell to pay in international opinion if we were to sit on the sidelines.

Originally Posted by Tantal

We, as a nation, shouldn't intentionally make ourselves weak to give other nations the appearance of strength. It's pretty simple, really. If the U.K. didn't want to assist us with the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, ya'll should've stood on your principles and told us "no".

We , like you , don't live in a democracy , if we did you would not have had British support for the attack on Iraq for sure

Regardless of what Bush said, do you really think we would have invaded the U.K. for failure to support us militarily in these wars? Bush's point was that a nation cannot take our foreign and military aid and have access to our commercial markets while simultaneously working for our defeat or hindering our prosecution of terrorists and their supporters. He did not mean that anyone that didn't assist us militarily would be a target for military action, as you would like to have people believe.

No I don't think you would have invaded the UK , you know better , but that hardly makes the US Mother Teresa either.

And that's terrorists as defined by the US with no mention of the State terrorism prosecuted by the USA.

The other night I was watching US president Johnson talking in the sixties about how the US was fighting terrorists and fighting for democracy in Vietnam. But that wasn't the truth.

The truth was that the US was suppressing democracy and the terrorists were the people who were fighting for democracy in Vietnam.

They seek and support the destruction of the democratic government of Venezuela today.

They hail Iraqi " democracy " when the truth is that the government has no influence outside of the US protected Green Zone and the country is a mess .
How can people constantly be taken in by this rubbish ?

As for the commercial side of things........ tell me , seeing as the 9/11 hijackers were mainly from Saudi Arabia how come the only planes flying around directly after the attack were planes carrying Saudis ( who may have had direct responsibility towards the funding ) out of the country under orders from the same people who have declared the war on terror?

What horrors has the US thrown at the House of Saud since the attacks ? They supplied most of the terrorists and the funding .

Pauli , the Nuremberg standards if applied to the US attack on Iraq would return , if things are consistent , a verdict of guilty . Read what they say.

Originally Posted by Spartacus

We , like you , don't live in a democracy , if we did you would not have had British support for the attack on Iraq for sure




No I don't think you would have invaded the UK , you know better , but that hardly makes the US Mother Teresa either.

And that's terrorists as defined by the US with no mention of the State terrorism prosecuted by the USA.

The other night I was watching US president Johnson talking in the sixties about how the US was fighting terrorists and fighting for democracy in Vietnam. But that wasn't the truth.

The truth was that the US was suppressing democracy and the terrorists were the people who were fighting for democracy in Vietnam.

They seek and support the destruction of the democratic government of Venezuela today.

They hail Iraqi " democracy " when the truth is that the government has no influence outside of the US protected Green Zone and the country is a mess .
How can people constantly be taken in by this rubbish ?

As for the commercial side of things........ tell me , seeing as the 9/11 hijackers were mainly from Saudi Arabia how come the only planes flying around directly after the attack were planes carrying Saudis ( who may have had direct responsibility towards the funding ) out of the country under orders from the same people who have declared the war on terror?

What horrors has the US thrown at the House of Saud since the attacks ? They supplied most of the terrorists and the funding .

Pauli , the Nuremberg standards if applied to the US attack on Iraq would return , if things are consistent , a verdict of guilty . Read what they say.

Waging agressive war?No ,defensive action is not agressive war!
Crimes against humanity,ie genocide?No allowing illegal combattents to live(under Geneva convention standards they may be shot on the battlefield)the USA take illegal combattents prisoner,very non agressive of them dont you think!?

No sparticus you dont know anything about the rules of armed conflict,you are just making up stories to justify your hatred of America,ive seen it done for nearly 40 years whatever america does will be cause to criticise.EG the crybabies in the UN and EU whined and wrung their hands about how America didnt do enough to alleviate the Bosnia crisis.So hearing this HATRED tha USA decided that it would improove its international image by getting involved with fixing the KOSOVO crisis......Guess what that was used as a reason to rant and spout hatredd against the USA also!!!!!!Damned if they do,Damned if they dont!!!!!!!(notice how you dont respond to that point,America Haters never do)!!??

Originally Posted by pauli007001

Waging agressive war?No ,defensive action is not agressive war!

Yes aggressive war, there is no way Iraq was a threat to the US and if the "defence" was in response to 9/11 they should have invaded Saudi if they were going to invade anywhere.
There were no Iraqis amongst the hijackers , so we had all the lies about Saddam and Bin Laden being cosy with eachother ( when the Bush family are cosier with the Bin Ladens ), the famous 45 minute nuclear capability BS, the anthrax allegations ( when the anthrax scares were traced to CIA labs ), WMD that the weapons inspectors said they never had , it's all conclusive evidence that the threat posed by Iraq was non existant so it had to be manufactured with the lies I have mentioned.

In my lifetime I have witnessed the US declare that Nicaragua was a threat to its national security . Like they were going to march through Mexico and attack the USA
Incidentally the World Court agreed with Nicaragua that the attacks were illegal and decreed that the US should stop them immediately and pay massive war reparations. The US response ? To ignore them and increase the severity of the attacks.

Even worse was when they said that Grenada , the nutmeg capital of the world, was a threat to its national security.

It's rubbish , complete and utter rubbish , and you like to repeat it parrot fashion.

Originally Posted by Spartacus

Yes aggressive war, there is no way Iraq was a threat to the US and if the "defence" was in response to 9/11 they should have invaded Saudi if they were going to invade anywhere.
There were no Iraqis amongst the hijackers , so we had all the lies about Saddam and Bin Laden being cosy with eachother ( when the Bush family are cosier with the Bin Ladens ), the famous 45 minute nuclear capability BS, the anthrax allegations ( when the anthrax scares were traced to CIA labs ), WMD that the weapons inspectors said they never had , it's all conclusive evidence that the threat posed by Iraq was non existant so it had to be manufactured with the lies I have mentioned.

In my lifetime I have witnessed the US declare that Nicaragua was a threat to its national security . Like they were going to march through Mexico and attack the USA
Incidentally the World Court agreed with Nicaragua that the attacks were illegal and decreed that the US should stop them immediately and pay massive war reparations. The US response ? To ignore them and increase the severity of the attacks.

Even worse was when they said that Grenada , the nutmeg capital of the world, was a threat to its national security.

It's rubbish , complete and utter rubbish , and you like to repeat it parrot fashion.

Yes nicaragua was a threat,its involvement in the Drug trade was a threat as well as attacks on US Citizens(the people the world wants to see dead for some reason,Jealosy i think).
You should stop telling lies with regard to Grenada,it was not a nation it was a British protectorate.Elements of the Cuban regular Army and revoulutionary guard had landed in grenada and united with a couple of hundred communists from Grenada.They attacked ST George University(obviously it has such an offensive name),and took scores of US citizens hostage(most of them were just kids studing,i know Americans studying another war crime,kind of like americans dancing ,americans grocery shopping,americans cooking,americans working,americans having a beer)!!!

I never said Iraq had anything to do with 911 although a few alquaida camps were found in Iraq.Iraq was believed to have WMDs,the USA believed this truly,based on reports made by the British secret services,soooooooo tony B Liar and his communists set em up in my humble and free opinion!!!!

Originally Posted by pauli007001

Yes nicaragua was a threat,its involvement in the Drug trade was a threat as well as attacks on US Citizens(the people the world wants to see dead for some reason,Jealosy i think).

You are talking rubbish mate , the CIA sold crack cocaine ( allegedly ) to black drug dealers in LA to fund the attacks on Nicaragua.

And all that " they attack us because they are jealous " is rubbish and conveniently omits the fact that American foreign policy has made them the most feared and resented nation on earth

You should stop telling lies with regard to Grenada,it was not a nation it was a British protectorate.Elements of the Cuban regular Army and revoulutionary guard had landed in grenada and united with a couple of hundred communists from Grenada.They attacked ST George University(obviously it has such an offensive name),and took scores of US citizens hostage(most of them were just kids studing,i know Americans studying another war crime,kind of like americans dancing ,americans grocery shopping,americans cooking,americans working,americans having a beer)!!!

" Telling lies "? Your having a laugh , you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Grenada gained independence from Britain in 1974

The Cubans on Grenada were mostly construction workers and had been told by the Cuban government not to involve themselves in Grenadan internal affairs and to be passive spectators if the US invaded

Have a read of this and stop spouting junk

Invasion of Grenada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I never said Iraq had anything to do with 911 although a few alquaida camps were found in Iraq.Iraq was believed to have WMDs,the USA believed this truly,based on reports made by the British secret services,soooooooo tony B Liar and his communists set em up in my humble and free opinion!!!!

Your notion that the US was stupid to believe the Brits ( communist Brits at that , what complete rubbish ) is ridiculous and only a totally automaton would believe it.

That saying on your posts would be more accurate if it said " in a state of eternal ignorance "

Can members please debate the issues minus the personal insults.

Thank you for your cooperation

Originally Posted by Spartacus

You are talking rubbish mate , the CIA sold crack cocaine ( allegedly ) to black drug dealers in LA to fund the attacks on Nicaragua.

And all that " they attack us because they are jealous " is rubbish and conveniently omits the fact that American foreign policy has made them the most feared and resented nation on earth


" Telling lies "? Your having a laugh , you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Grenada gained independence from Britain in 1974

The Cubans on Grenada were mostly construction workers and had been told by the Cuban government not to involve themselves in Grenadan internal affairs and to be passive spectators if the US invaded

Have a read of this and stop spouting junk

Invasion of Grenada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Your notion that the US was stupid to believe the Brits ( communist Brits at that , what complete rubbish ) is ridiculous and only a totally automaton would believe it.

That saying on your posts would be more accurate if it said " in a state of eternal ignorance "

The Invasion of grenada was totally justified and at the time grenada was a free state but not totally indipendant,it was a protectorate.Should the USAhave left the kids taken hostage by the cuban forces(backed by grnadan commies) to be murdered in some horrific manner?
As for Wikpedia,if its written down it must be a fact?I have mates who served in the US military and they have told me cubans were present.Eyewitnesses are far more reliable than some clerk behing a dest writing things down when he has had no experience of the subject he is writing!!!
As for jealosy resentment is caused by Jealousy,Forign policy is to Defend America and its allies and its people,wherever they are,but i know all Americans are evil and do not deserve defense.

Originally Posted by Albion 69

Can members please debate the issues minus the personal insults.

Thank you for your cooperation

For some the insults complete the lack of issues.