Continue to blame the yobs all you want, The real culprit is society at large for standing by and allowing this to happen in the first place and the government in making it next to imposable to do anything about this siuation without being made a criminal when we do,

Either we take responsibility for this situation or it can only get worse.

Originally Posted by manrow

But the history on this subject is not good; his 'hug a hoodie' campaign gave out possibly entirely the wrong impression.

Because he doesn"t understand the problem. He thinks if you appeal to their better nature they will reform - in a small number of cases, maybe; 90% cases, no way, I"m afraid. He needs to get with it, or he will open the door for somebody else, who does understand these problems and will act upon them, as everybody I speak to is screaming out to happen. Come on, David, let"s have an open season on yobs (some hopes) - leave the motorists alone, for once! I am sure you can find the revenue elsewhere.

why do we Continue to ask David Cammoron to help he won't thats because he can't, it's true he has no inclination to help, as he follows directive from the EU and He intends to keep it that way Is it the laws you wish to change change to what exactly??? As we see today the law is an ass and always has been Granted The coalition has made some moves that make sense Like stop and search but only because of the money it will save in the long run And what he proposes is to cut the number of Police based on the budget cuts.so again makes sense,all in all it makes sense but look at it another way If you continue to ask the government to run your life we will get much of the same no due prosces for a start, thats the good thing about Corpus Durus saves money no jury. could become the norm, add to that we are now guilty until proven Innocent puts the onus on us to pay to prove our own innocence, the ball is firmly in their court. Instead of Innocent Until proven guilty.In a jury we have 12 good men and women hard to corupt In a judge you have 1 man and every man has a price?? so now the Law is even easer to corupt Society has far more power than the law as the Law in it,s self is only medicine for the Cancer that befalls society today and even when we have the strictest laws like flogging and the death penalty it has never stoped crime,there is one way if you continue to ask the government to intervene in what is clearly a social issue, that is to implement a soviet or fascist type police force caring guns and start taking unruly children of the street as you have to start early to prevent them becoming real criminals.

I know a man who after living his young life in prison and has now managed to live his life out side crime And a comment he made was this, even though he had never committed a crime until he was 14.he was treated as a criminal just because of where he was born his family have never committed a crime or had any dealings with the police but just because of where he lived people treated him as a criminal.so eventually he got to the point where as you say If people think i am a criminal i might as well become one.That's the stage most kids are at now society treats them as thugs or hoddies the law treats us as criminals what have thay got to lose, Plus a life on the dole is all thay see as with the **** education given to them. or a life of crime which could pay them even more than the dole, and thay receive acceptance outside the society.I see every reason to see this is intensional as we have the choice to revert back to change the rules to put the power back into the hands of the people but as i see it most want the Government to control us even more. If this is the case i Think were lost.

Fubar has a point, there is something of a "postcode" policing trend in some areas.Even victims of crime who reside in areas where a lot of criminals also reside will be given very different treatment than a person residing in an area where a large number of middle class types reside.
It is a postcode prejudice on the part of the police, Address profiling perhaps???

Also I find it very odd that when these yobs as we tend to call them land up going to prison thay have the opportunity to educate themselves, can you see the irony in this, the very education that thay should have received when thay were at school you just can't make this stuff up Problems still remains tho what job's await when thay get out well, at least thay can read and write, "bonus"

Originally Posted by Midas

I can't disagree with that, but it's useless to speculate without knowing just what advice and from whom David Cameron has received on this particular topic. For all we know there could well be an advisory panel or two comprised of people who have lifetimes' experience of inner city crime working within the Ministry of Justice. There are certainly plenty of precedents for it.

Basically what I'm saying is just because he's not experienced the problems first hand and has uttered just a few words about it, which have perhaps been taken out of context, doesn't mean it's not either being taken seriously or there aren't steps being taken to tackle the problem and its causes.

David Cameron is launching his 'Big Society' today, I wonder if that might have an unexpected effect upon the yobs?

Originally Posted by soloman

David Cameron is launching his 'Big Society' today, I wonder if that might have an unexpected effect upon the yobs?

I would sincerely hope so! Further details of the 'Big Society' plan can be found here - David Cameron launches Big Society scheme - Channel 4 News - amongst many other reports.

Watching a rerun of "Piers Morgan on Monaco" where the quote "Monaco has virtually no crime", and a subsequent discussion with a friend, was made has got me wondering, far from the first time, where the balance between tough laws and personal freedom begins and ends, and how much should we tolerate restrictions on some of the things that some of us might want to do in order to maintain a relatively low level of both anti-social behaviour and crime.

Singapore and Monaco are both good examples of countries where a virtually zero tolerance approach to crime would seem to have paid real dividends. If you look at the statistics for total crime rates per 100,000 people, the UK has 8,500, Singapore has just 400 whilst Monaco has a minuscule 40, but of course the statistics only tell part of the story. It's the background and whether we here in the UK would be prepared to accept the rules and regulations, and the penalties, both those countries have in place to achieve their low figures. For instance a zero tolerance to the consumption of alcohol in public, instant and 'with no exceptions' fines for littering and writing graffiti, instant deportation for breaking immigration rules, in Singapore the use of corporal punishment for a number of anti-social crimes, in Monaco a ban on things like men not wearing a shirt in public. Both those countries also have a significant number of CCTV cameras in the streets (mind you so do we for all the good they do) and a higher ratio of police than we have here - in the UK there's 1 policeman for every 420 people, in Singapore there's 1 for every 280 and in Monaco there's 1 for every 65 - and it's not necessarily a matter of where the money comes from to pay for this, tax levels in these three countries is in inverse proportion to the numbers; 0% in Monaco, up to 20% in Singapore and up to 50% here.

Would we be prepared to extend our laws and the relatively small amount of inconvenience to the average law-abiding person in order to try to cut down the high levels of crime and anti-social behaviour here? For instance would we be prepared to have a blanket "no drinking of alcohol or being drunk and disorderly in public places" ban with instant fines and/or community service punishment for anyone breaking that ban, no exceptions? Would we be prepared to reintroduce corporal punishment or the public stocks of old for those found guilty of littering the streets or disfiguring buildings with graffiti? Would we be prepared to deport immigrants within a few days if they committed any crime (in Singapore, immigrant children's nannies or au pairs can be deported even if they get pregnant) regardless of their personal circumstances?

I know education plays a key role in cutting down crime and yob behaviour, and that must go hand in hand with anything else, but where do we draw the line as regards rules and regulations and punishment, do we have to put certain 'human rights' of the minority on the back-burner for the benefit of the majority, and should the public have a say in what they would like the government to do regarding this problem, and for it to be binding on the government?

Originally Posted by Midas

Watching a rerun of "Piers Morgan on Monaco" where the quote "Monaco has virtually no crime", and a subsequent discussion with a friend, was made has got me wondering, far from the first time, where the balance between tough laws and personal freedom begins and ends, and how much should we tolerate restrictions on some of the things that some of us might want to do in order to maintain a relatively low level of both anti-social behaviour and crime.

Singapore and Monaco are both good examples of countries where a virtually zero tolerance approach to crime would seem to have paid real dividends. If you look at the statistics for total crime rates per 100,000 people, the UK has 8,500, Singapore has just 400 whilst Monaco has a minuscule 40, but of course the statistics only tell part of the story. It's the background and whether we here in the UK would be prepared to accept the rules and regulations, and the penalties, both those countries have in place to achieve their low figures. For instance a zero tolerance to the consumption of alcohol in public, instant and 'with no exceptions' fines for littering and writing graffiti, instant deportation for breaking immigration rules, in Singapore the use of corporal punishment for a number of anti-social crimes, in Monaco a ban on things like men not wearing a shirt in public. Both those countries also have a significant number of CCTV cameras in the streets (mind you so do we for all the good they do) and a higher ratio of police than we have here - in the UK there's 1 policeman for every 420 people, in Singapore there's 1 for every 280 and in Monaco there's 1 for every 65 - and it's not necessarily a matter of where the money comes from to pay for this, tax levels in these three countries is in inverse proportion to the numbers; 0% in Monaco, up to 20% in Singapore and up to 50% here.

Would we be prepared to extend our laws and the relatively small amount of inconvenience to the average law-abiding person in order to try to cut down the high levels of crime and anti-social behaviour here? For instance would we be prepared to have a blanket "no drinking of alcohol or being drunk and disorderly in public places" ban with instant fines and/or community service punishment for anyone breaking that ban, no exceptions? Would we be prepared to reintroduce corporal punishment or the public stocks of old for those found guilty of littering the streets or disfiguring buildings with graffiti? Would we be prepared to deport immigrants within a few days if they committed any crime (in Singapore, immigrant children's nannies or au pairs can be deported even if they get pregnant) regardless of their personal circumstances?

I know education plays a key role in cutting down crime and yob behaviour, and that must go hand in hand with anything else, but where do we draw the line as regards rules and regulations and punishment, do we have to put certain 'human rights' of the minority on the back-burner for the benefit of the majority, and should the public have a say in what they would like the government to do regarding this problem, and for it to be binding on the government?

I don't know the source of these statistics but they are nevertheless very revealing; I certainly don't have any answers!
I am old enough to remember the 'swinging sixties' which at the time we thought to be a magnificent release of freedom, which I now consider to be the start of the 'age of irresponsibility and low standards'. Since most events operate on a sine curve basis, the only question I ask now, is - are we at the top or bottom of the curve? Top meaning over-controlled by government and obviously the bottom meaning too free and easy?

Originally Posted by soloman

I don't know the source of these statistics but they are nevertheless very revealing; I certainly don't have any answers!

Sorry I should have included the sources; the crime and police figures are from both NationMaster and the latest UN International Crime Survey, whilst the tax figures are from a business publication I subscribe to, although these are widely available on the internet.

I am old enough to remember the 'swinging sixties' which at the time we thought to be a magnificent release of freedom, which I now consider to be the start of the 'age of irresponsibility and low standards'. Since most events operate on a sine curve basis, the only question I ask now, is - are we at the top or bottom of the curve? Top meaning over-controlled by government and obviously the bottom meaning too free and easy?

Likewise with the age, however I'm not so sure there's quite such a direct link between personal freedom and irresponsibility and low standards. There are a considerable number of countries round the world which enjoy a significant level of personal freedom yet where the population by and large are responsible and well educated, which leads me to think it's more a matter of education and a retention of family ties and family responsibility than anything. It's a highly complex matter, and even things like decisions on planning make a difference - where people are taken from close communities and put into apartments or soulless rows of houses where they're isolated from their families and neighbours there's inevitably going to be a negative impact on our social structure and cohesiveness.

Laxity or over-control by government itself obviously plays a part, and it's important the balance is right, but in reality without the right education and a return to the position where the head of the family was responsible for the behaviour of the younger members, who in turn respected that, I doubt we'll see much more than a surface change. Unfortunately the situation here has deteriorated to the point where only fairly tough and restrictive laws (for some) will have any short term effect, but without longer term educational and social changes I'm not sure if they'll do anything other than create resentment.

I really don't think birtching, beatings or administering brutality is the remedy to stopping bad behaviour from our grown-up children; treating tear-a-ways with violence just increases their hatred towards their fellow citizens! If you live by such a code, you are one and the same, violent criminals should be imprisoned by all means, but it must be noted that the days of an easy streach in jail, playing snooker, watching TV, or generally dossing about is well an truly over, Britain has adopted the American idea of a chain gang style work-force, ranging from the removal of graffitti to sweeping, road-parks-hospitals areas, road repairing, gardening, forestry, canal-river clearing; there must be an abundence of public jobs that have never seen the light of day done and dusted by our fighting fit youth! Of course, on the other side there is the immigrant criminals, these people can be nipped in the bud from day one, no question about it; deportation!

Originally Posted by sheffield39

I really don't think birtching, beatings or administering brutality is the remedy to stopping bad behaviour from our grown-up children; treating tear-a-ways with violence just increases their hatred towards their fellow citizens! If you live by such a code, you are one and the same, violent criminals should be imprisoned by all means, but it must be noted that the days of an easy streach in jail, playing snooker, watching TV, or generally dossing about is well an truly over, Britain has adopted the American idea of a chain gang style work-force, ranging from the removal of graffitti to sweeping, road-parks-hospitals areas, road repairing, gardening, forestry, canal-river clearing; there must be an abundence of public jobs that have never seen the light of day done and dusted by our fighting fit youth! Of course, on the other side there is the immigrant criminals, these people can be nipped in the bud from day one, no question about it; deportation!

How nice it would be if your post were accurate sheffield39! The reality is that prisoners have a very easy time in prison and we seem incapable of changing the system due to the dreaded human right act! That is precisely the reason why criminality continues - there is no action we can take which will change criminals habits.

Originally Posted by sheffield39

I really don't think birtching, beatings or administering brutality is the remedy to stopping bad behaviour from our grown-up children; treating tear-a-ways with violence just increases their hatred towards their fellow citizens! If you live by such a code, you are one and the same, violent criminals should be imprisoned by all means, but it must be noted that the days of an easy streach in jail, playing snooker, watching TV, or generally dossing about is well an truly over, Britain has adopted the American idea of a chain gang style work-force, ranging from the removal of graffitti to sweeping, road-parks-hospitals areas, road repairing, gardening, forestry, canal-river clearing; there must be an abundence of public jobs that have never seen the light of day done and dusted by our fighting fit youth! Of course, on the other side there is the immigrant criminals, these people can be nipped in the bud from day one, no question about it; deportation!

I Totaly disagree on birching. What a lot of people make the mistake is comparing these people to themselves with decent values, and codes of behavoir. My response to that is that you can"t: Judges do that, politicians do that, social workers try to that and ordinary people do that in some cases, you see evidence of this on this forum - you, I think, are one such case; this does show you are a decent, caring person - as are others.

However, what you have to remember, is that these people AREN"T like you and me, and the civilised community, they are in some cases the lowest form of vermin! Can I ask you a couple of questions Sheffield: Would you even think of beating to death a 90 year-old woman in the street, or her home just for the £30 or so, in her bag? Or would you pour petrol over somebodys pet cat or dog and set it on fire? Or coming up the evolutionary scale, slightly these two individuals, who thinks it"s "cool" to damage ambulances - air, or otherwise. If a person can answer yes to any of these questions, they are scum and should be treated as such.

I strongly believe you have to meet violence with violence; I don"t think this, I know this. These sort of people will only target the vunerable - 6ft 3in, 16 stone guys like myself, they don"t want to know - unless in crowd, of course - because they know they might get hurt themselves; the birch is one big deterent, believe me! Yobs do not like pain - I have seen this during my career in secruity, a dozen, or so years ago.

As for deportation in full agreement on that. We have a enough of our own thugs, without importing them. Also, some of the other things seem like a good idea - with 14 hour working days. You have to show them they can"t win. After all, they did with me when I forgot to put my seat belt on and a little old man of 75, on a zimmer frame, handcuffed by two 6ft officiers - SIX MONTHS I THINK HE GOT; all for a couple of thousand pounds of owed council tax, he definately didn"t win

Originally Posted by octopus

I Totaly disagree on birching. What a lot of people make the mistake is comparing these people to themselves with decent values, and codes of behavoir. My response to that is that you can"t: Judges do that, politicians do that, social workers try to that and ordinary people do that in some cases, you see evidence of this on this forum - you, I think, are one such case; this does show you are a decent, caring person - as are others.

However, what you have to remember, is that these people AREN"T like you and me, and the civilised community, they are in some cases the lowest form of vermin! Can I ask you a couple of questions Sheffield: Would you even think of beating to death a 90 year-old woman in the street, or her home just for the £30 or so, in her bag? Or would you pour petrol over somebodys pet cat or dog and set it on fire? Or coming up the evolutionary scale, slightly these two individuals, who thinks it"s "cool" to damage ambulances - air, or otherwise. If a person can answer yes to any of these questions, they are scum and should be treated as such.

I strongly believe you have to meet violence with violence; I don"t think this, I know this. These sort of people will only target the vunerable - 6ft 3in, 16 stone guys like myself, they don"t want to know - unless in crowd, of course - because they know they might get hurt themselves; the birch is one big deterent, believe me! Yobs do not like pain - I have seen this during my career in secruity, a dozen, or so years ago.

As for deportation in full agreement on that. We have a enough of our own thugs, without importing them. Also, some of the other things seem like a good idea - with 14 hour working days. You have to show them they can"t win. After all, they did with me when I forgot to put my seat belt on and a little old man of 75, on a zimmer frame, handcuffed by two 6ft officiers - SIX MONTHS I THINK HE GOT; all for a couple of thousand pounds of owed council tax, he definately didn"t win

Really I don't know the answer to this one as its a real stinker, given the amout of sadness these violent young people have brought down upon us makes most folk cringe at the thought! As a child I was violently abused by my own birth mother, almost every day of my life and it only stopped when my grandmother was made aware of my situation, and it was ended as she took me into her own home. The violence did not cause any lasting effects on me, at 15 years I left school and joined the fishing fleet out of North Shields till 19, then the armed forces. moving to sheffield I married and settled down to raise our family of 4 well ajusted children, who have given us 9 grandkids-2 great -kids; making me 1 very happy, lucky man. All because I had a loving grandmother who gave me her devoted love, probably there may not be enough love in the world today, people don't seem to care about one another as much as they did, I don't know. But I feel if someone is persistently violent with caring helpful people, there should be some form of control that steers these people on a more practical, worthwhile life-style, training them to lead a more ordinary peaceful co-existence with others. Of course their not going to go along with somebody just telling them they must conform with this; a certain amout of brutality seems to be the only solution. Thats why I would like to see this country use the American road-gang idea, give these tough-guys the peaceful means to develope a certain amount of pride and skill they can relate too, as their direction to a better life! Don't just bring them back to prison from a hard days work and leave them to it, the rehabilitation program must be their way of life 24/7; they should shower off, change their clothing before they eat, then their pots cleaned-up and put away until required. Next day after breakfast their bed must be bed-blocked, Their day begins all over again as they are delivered to their tasks

Originally Posted by sheffield39

Really I don't know the answer to this one as its a real stinker, given the amout of sadness these violent young people have brought down upon us makes most folk cringe at the thought! As a child I was violently abused by my own birth mother, almost every day of my life and it only stopped when my grandmother was made aware of my situation, and it was ended as she took me into her own home. The violence did not cause any lasting effects on me, at 15 years I left school and joined the fishing fleet out of North Shields till 19, then the armed forces. moving to sheffield I married and settled down to raise our family of 4 well ajusted children, who have given us 9 grandkids-2 great -kids; making me 1 very happy, lucky man. All because I had a loving grandmother who gave me her devoted love, probably there may not be enough love in the world today, people don't seem to care about one another as much as they did, I don't know. But I feel if someone is persistently violent with caring helpful people, there should be some form of control that steers these people on a more practical, worthwhile life-style, training them to lead a more ordinary peaceful co-existence with others. Of course their not going to go along with somebody just telling them they must conform with this; a certain amout of brutality seems to be the only solution. Thats why I would like to see this country use the American road-gang idea, give these tough-guys the peaceful means to develope a certain amount of pride and skill they can relate too, as their direction to a better life! Don't just bring them back to prison from a hard days work and leave them to it, the rehabilitation program must be their way of life 24/7; they should shower off, change their clothing before they eat, then their pots cleaned-up and put away until required. Next day after breakfast their bed must be bed-blocked, Their day begins all over again as they are delivered to their tasks

Is there any correlation between the theme of this thread and recent events in Northern Ireland? Looks to me as though the yobs are having a hay day!