There was a very good interview about this topic on the daily show.

John interviewed Dr. Mustafa Barghouti & Anna Baltzer. You guys should check it out.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...nterview-pt--1

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...nterview-pt--2

He who draws the sword will die by the sword.
The only way for a county to be safe from nuclear weapons is for them not to have any.

When Iran's peaceful nuclear ambitions have been fully achieved they are going to launch a peaceful missile containing a peaceful nuclear bomb, and peacefully attempt to wipe the "Zionist state" off the map.

Originally Posted by Barry

When Iran's peaceful nuclear ambitions have been fully achieved they are going to launch a peaceful missile containing a peaceful nuclear bomb, and peacefully attempt to wipe the "Zionist state" off the map.

Prove it.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Prove it.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Yet they seem keen to hide their 'peaceful' Nuclear ambitions. If they are not open with their nuclear ambitions, then they must have something to hide.

U.S. and Israel prepare for military action against Iran

What do you want me to prove?
All I can go on is press reports, intelligence reports and add my own common sense.
What else can we go on?

Originally Posted by Barry

U.S. and Israel prepare for military action against Iran

What do you want me to prove?
All I can go on is press reports, intelligence reports and add my own common sense.
What else can we go on?

Well you proved that the US and Israel are hypocritical warmongers, but we already knew that.

Intelligence reports, that is meaningless. Those two nations are well known for lying about what the intelligence says.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Well you proved that the US and Israel are hypocritical warmongers, but we already knew that.

Intelligence reports, that is meaningless. Those two nations are well known for lying about what the intelligence says.

Like I asked, what else can we go on?
What do you base your idea upon, that Iran is only developing Nuclear technology for peaceful purposes?
Do you base this on what Ahmadinejad has said to the UN?
Do you base it on what El Baradai has told the UN?

Come on, what DO you base your opinions on?

So I just heard about a Palestinian family in Jerusalem that woke up to the sounds of the Israeli Police breaking into their home and forcibly removing them ( a home the family have live in for 50 years) the reason why they removed the family from their home was to allow Jewish settlers to move in this home.

They are forcing Palestinians onto the street, how is that acceptable?


How would you feel if the police forced their way into your home early in the morning, and kicked you out so that someone else could take your home.



In addition the Israeli Govt is demolishing the homes of other Palestinians (over 700 this year). The Govt says they are doing this as they did not get a building permit. The problem is that the Israeli govt will not issue building permits to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians want homes to live in and schools for their children they must build them illegally and face them being demolished.


Then there is the fact that the Israeli govt regularly turns off the water to the homes of Palestinians. Many Palestinians in Jerusalem must have water tanks on the roofs of their homes, so that when the Israelis turn off the water they will have some water to survive off.


So all you baby killers who love the Israeli govt so much rebut.


Sunday: Across the divide - part 1 | News Video

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

So I just heard about a Palestinian family in Jerusalem that woke up to the sounds of the Israeli Police breaking into their home and forcibly removing them ( a home the family have live in for 50 years) the reason why they removed the family from their home was to allow Jewish settlers to move in this home.

They are forcing Palestinians onto the street, how is that acceptable?


How would you feel if the police forced their way into your home early in the morning, and kicked you out so that someone else could take your home.



In addition the Israeli Govt is demolishing the homes of other Palestinians (over 700 this year). The Govt says they are doing this as they did not get a building permit. The problem is that the Israeli govt will not issue building permits to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians want homes to live in and schools for their children they must build them illegally and face them being demolished.


Then there is the fact that the Israeli govt regularly turns off the water to the homes of Palestinians. Many Palestinians in Jerusalem must have water tanks on the roofs of their homes, so that when the Israelis turn off the water they will have some water to survive off.


So all you baby killers who love the Israeli govt so much rebut.


Sunday: Across the divide - part 1 | News Video

You do realise Jerusalem is Israeli? And that expulsions happen to Jews as well? Admittedly they are probably trying to Judificate Jerusalem, but at least they still let the Palestinians live there and go to their respective shrines, far better than the Arabs did when they controlled East Jerusalem.

Also Jews have been expelled from their settlements, the disengagement from Gaza moved thousands of Jews from their homes.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Also Jews have been expelled from their settlements, the disengagement from Gaza moved thousands of Jews from their homes.

So you are unhappy that the Israeli govt forced Jewish settlers to leave land that they STOLE from the Palestinians, then gave to Jewish settlers to allow them to dominate the Palestinians in Gaza.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

So you are unhappy that the Israeli govt forced Jewish settlers to leave land that they STOLE from the Palestinians, then gave to Jewish settlers to allow them to dominate the Palestinians in Gaza.

Stole would be if it wasn't taken in a war, it was. What a lot of people fail to realise is that for all intents and purposes Israel conquered Palestine in a war started by the Arabs themselves. The current arrangement is only thanks to Israeli mercy.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Stole would be if it wasn't taken in a war, it was. What a lot of people fail to realise is that for all intents and purposes Israel conquered Palestine in a war started by the Arabs themselves. The current arrangement is only thanks to Israeli mercy.

If that is mercy, I dread to think how it could be any worse.


The Jewish settlers started all of the fighting in the Middle East when they began moving to Palestine in the late 1800's.

So because the land was taken by soldiers from one of the biggest militaries around, who has enormous support from the most powerful nation in the world, and they were fighting civilians with a couple of AK's makes this alright to you?

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

If that is mercy, I dread to think how it could be any worse.

How about not having any land at all? How about not having access to any of the their religious sites? Because that's what the Arabs did to the Israelis.

The Jewish settlers started all of the fighting in the Middle East when they began moving to Palestine in the late 1800's.

That's wrong, the Ottoman Empire actually welcomed the Jews, as they brought wealth and industry to a relatively sparsely populated area, Jerusalem only had a few tens of thousands of people at the time, Palestine was not a major Arab hub or area until after the Jews arrived and began injecting wealth into the area. Furthermore both groups worked together to support the Allies in WWI after the Ottomans began reigning hell on non Turkish ethnics, including the Arabs.

So because the land was taken by soldiers from one of the biggest militaries around, who has enormous support from the most powerful nation in the world, and they were fighting civilians with a couple of AK's makes this alright to you?

Thanks to Israeli security arrangements, now all the Palestinians have is AKs and improvised rockets, you forget that Egypt, Syria, Jordan as well as many others who went to war with Israel had tanks and jets, as well as huge monetary support from the Arab League.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Stole would be if it wasn't taken in a war, it was. What a lot of people fail to realise is that for all intents and purposes Israel conquered Palestine in a war started by the Arabs themselves. The current arrangement is only thanks to Israeli mercy.

You are correct that the goddamn Israelis won the war of conquest. The Brits gave up and the European invaders with the help of a few of their local soul brothers were able to establish a new country. Not much different than the Germans winning the war of conquest against Poland. In fact history is full of examples of one group of people dominating another but that doesn’t make it right.

As an American I usually have sympathy for the underdog and don’t like the way the Israelis have brutalized the Palestinians. It is against my moral bearing to see the way the Israelis have stolen land and subjugated the Palestinians.

I don’t think the Israelis have a superior right to the land than the Palestinians and I sure as hell don’t like the fact my country has been pulled into supporting this brutal apartheid terrorist state. We have supporting Israel not because it is the moral thing to do but because the pro Israel lobby is such a powerful force that dominates foreign policy decisions.

If you are talking about conquest the Jews got their country taken away from them over a thousand years ago. They either were forced out of the area or left on their own. Sorry about that. They did well in Europe and Russia for a thousand years. Just because the Nazis treated them like crap doesn’t mean they the right to steal land from the Palestinians.

Originally Posted by flash

You are correct that the goddamn Israelis won the war of conquest. The Brits gave up and the European invaders with the help of a few of their local soul brothers were able to establish a new country. Not much different than the Germans winning the war of conquest against Poland. In fact history is full of examples of one group of people dominating another but that doesn’t make it right.

As an American I usually have sympathy for the underdog and don’t like the way the Israelis have brutalized the Palestinians. It is against my moral bearing to see the way the Israelis have stolen land and subjugated the Palestinians.

I don’t think the Israelis have a superior right to the land than the Palestinians and I sure as hell don’t like the fact my country has been pulled into supporting this brutal apartheid terrorist state. We have supporting Israel not because it is the moral thing to do but because the pro Israel lobby is such a powerful force that dominates foreign policy decisions.

If you are talking about conquest the Jews got their country taken away from them over a thousand years ago. They either were forced out of the area or left on their own. Sorry about that. They did well in Europe and Russia for a thousand years. Just because the Nazis treated them like crap doesn’t mean they the right to steal land from the Palestinians.

Except unlike the invasion of Poland the Palestinians were the aggressors, now they're sorry they lost. How is it fair they can try to wipe a country off the map and then when it goes wrong for them they can just say "Ok, we give up, can we have our land back now?"

FURTHERMORE: Israel: Has no official racist polices; ergo, not Apartheid.

Israel: Does not target civilians; ergo, not terrorists.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

How about not having any land at all? How about not having access to any of the their religious sites? Because that's what the Arabs did to the Israelis.

When?

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

That's wrong, the Ottoman Empire actually welcomed the Jews, as they brought wealth and industry to a relatively sparsely populated area, Jerusalem only had a few tens of thousands of people at the time, Palestine was not a major Arab hub or area until after the Jews arrived and began injecting wealth into the area. Furthermore both groups worked together to support the Allies in WWI after the Ottomans began reigning hell on non Turkish ethnics, including the Arabs.

Their actions are the reason why there is so much violence. I would go as far as to say they were partially responsible for 9/11 and ensuing wars in the Middle East.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Thanks to Israeli security arrangements, now all the Palestinians have is AKs and improvised rockets, you forget that Egypt, Syria, Jordan as well as many others who went to war with Israel had tanks and jets, as well as huge monetary support from the Arab League.

Very few Palestinians are armed, most are peaceful people trying to live a normal life while having their homes stolen/destroyed and their friends and family killed.

The surrounding nations don't want war with Israel. The invasion in 1948 was not a real war. The invasion forces were tiny, they committed very littler of their armies.

Do not forget the reason why Israel still exists is they have had enormous support from the USA.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Except unlike the invasion of Poland the Palestinians were the aggressors, now they're sorry they lost. How is it fair they can try to wipe a country off the map and then when it goes wrong for them they can just say "Ok, we give up, can we have our land back now?"

FURTHERMORE: Israel: Has no official racist polices; ergo, not Apartheid.

Israel: Does not target civilians; ergo, not terrorists.

How can the Palestinians be considered the aggressors when they were defending their land from European and Russian invaders?

Are you denying that Israel is not a theocracy? It is known worldwide as "The Jewish State". There is a "right of return" in Israel that is based solely upon religion. Name one non Jew that has any significant political power in Israel.

The problem with your view is that somehow you think the goddamn European and Russian Jews had some kind of a right to reestablish the country of Israel after WWII because the Nazis had treated them like crap. This is where you fail because in order for them to do that they had to defeat and subjugate the people that were already living on the land. That is not right.

You really need to reexamine your moral bearing on this one because you have it wrong.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Except unlike the invasion of Poland the Palestinians were the aggressors, now they're sorry they lost. How is it fair they can try to wipe a country off the map and then when it goes wrong for them they can just say "Ok, we give up, can we have our land back now?"

FURTHERMORE: Israel: Has no official racist polices; ergo, not Apartheid.

Israel: Does not target civilians; ergo, not terrorists.

The Palestinians were never the aggressors, Palestinians have fewer rights under Israeli law, and Israel does target civilians.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Do not forget the reason why Israel still exists is they have had enormous support from the USA.

... or maybe it is because the Bible says Israel are God's chosen people, something the enemy really hates.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

The Palestinians were never the aggressors, Palestinians have fewer rights under Israeli law, and Israel does target civilians.

That's right, they target "civilians" wearing green uniforms, they are called Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah etc. and they intermingle with the civilian population for protection because they are cowards. They target specific identified enemy combatants, that is NOT a war crime.

Originally Posted by Barry

... or maybe it is because the Bible says Israel are God's chosen people, something the enemy really hates.

I think it's called self-aggrandization on the Israeli's part!

Originally Posted by Barry

That's right, they target "civilians" wearing green uniforms, they are called Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah etc. and they intermingle with the civilian population for protection because they are cowards. They target specific identified enemy combatants, that is NOT a war crime.

Barry, the fracking Israelis hide around powerful American made weapons as they are killing the Palestinians and taking away the land.

It is easy to be a killer in uniform when you are sitting in a F-16, isn't it?

Th Israelis have killed thousands of Arab non combantants over the years.

They do not hold the high ground in this conflict because they are the invaders.

Originally Posted by Barry

... or maybe it is because the Bible says Israel are God's chosen people, something the enemy really hates.

I have read and studied the Bible and I have never seen the country that was established in 1947 as being mentioned.

Also if you are a real Christian then you know that "God's Chosen People" are the ones that accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. That is the basic foundation of Christianity, isn't it?

I always laugh when I hear my fellow Christians spout this BS about modern day Israel. The Blood of Christ is what makes us saved, not being Jewish. Why did Christ appear among the Jews and preach salvation if the Jews were already "Chosen" in God's eyes?

You do understand that there are two basic tenants of Christianity, don't you? Faith and accepting the Blood of Christ. Jews do not accept the Blood of Christ so therefore they are just as condemned to hell as any other non believers according to the New Testament. You do believe in the New Testament, don't you?

You also understand that Israelis steal land and kill Christian Palestinians just like they do the Muslim Palestinians, don't you?

So, do you subscribe to replacement theology, Flash?
I appreciate what you say, and agree that there is only one way to Salvation, through the blood of Christ and faith in Him.

I did not say that Israel is all saved, nor that they are perfect.
However they are still God's chosen people.
When God makes a covenant and says forever, He means FOREVER.

Israel was not a state created because of the holocaust. Israel has been a state for thousands of years, part of that time in diaspora. It is still 50% or more in diaspora although many Jews are making Aliyah and returning to Israel.

I have been to Israel and part of what you refer to as Palestine, (Judea and Samaria) Flash, and I have met some of these Israelis that you are so quick to vilify. Believe me, they do not deserve it.

Isn't it strange that no-one mentions the fact that Americans are living on land stolen from the American Indians.
They murdered then to get it.

When are the Americans going to give that land back.

Oh - and what about the land stolen from Mexico - time to give that land back.

Israel have not stolen any land. They won it in defensive war(s) and annexed it which is perfectly legal under international law.

Originally Posted by Barry

Israel have not stolen any land.

They won it in defensive war(s) and annexed it which is perfectly legal under international law.

Really?

Not all wars are good wars. Just because you won a war don't mean you have the high moral ground.

The Palestinians are fighting for their lives and land and I would expect you as a fellow Christian to support the oppressed.

Although I have sympathy for the Palestinians I actually could care less who wins their little conflict.

I only want two things:

1. Justice for the crewmembers of the USS Liberty.

2. No more of my tax money being given to a brutal apartheid Middle East country.

That is a resonable agenda, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Barry

I did not say that Israel is all saved, nor that they are perfect.
However they are still God's chosen people.
When God makes a covenant and says forever, He means FOREVER.

Barry, you and I as true believers are Spiritual Jews. The nation of Israel in the Bible is the body of believers. It is not a political or geographical entity.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

When?

Up until the Six Day War Jordan had annexed East Jerusalem. Jews were expelled and denied access to religious sites (along with Christians) as well as some sites desecrated and vandalised.

Their actions are the reason why there is so much violence. I would go as far as to say they were partially responsible for 9/11 and ensuing wars in the Middle East.

You'll notice that the actual violence you refer to happened well after the 19th Century, contrary to what you claim here;

The Jewish settlers started all of the fighting in the Middle East when they began moving to Palestine in the late 1800's.

Furthermore actual fighting between Israel and Arabs was caused by the Palestinians.

Very few Palestinians are armed, most are peaceful people trying to live a normal life while having their homes stolen/destroyed and their friends and family killed.

I would agree with that, except I ask why they would vote in a terrorist Government? If they wanted peace, why would they vote in a Government committed to continuing war?

The surrounding nations don't want war with Israel. The invasion in 1948 was not a real war. The invasion forces were tiny, they committed very littler of their armies.

The surrounding nations now don't want war with Israel because they know they'll lose. Tens of thousands of men, hundreds of tanks and planes does not sound like little of their forces, considering they were only up against a newly formed nation in 1948. Furthermore the Six Day War resulted in far more tanks and planes being used.

Originally Posted by flash

How can the Palestinians be considered the aggressors when they were defending their land from European and Russian invaders?

As I pointed out, the Arabs apparently weren't to interested in defending their land until they suddenly realised how many Jews there were. They loved them when they came with all the money and expertise, but as soon as they demanded a little independence it was all too much. The actual Israel-Palestine/Arab War was started by the Arabs.

Are you denying that Israel is not a theocracy? It is known worldwide as "The Jewish State". There is a "right of return" in Israel that is based solely upon religion. Name one non Jew that has any significant political power in Israel.

Name one non-Muslim who has significant power in the Palestinian Authorities. Your point is moot as in most countries the majority religion has the most people, ergo, their are more likely to be people of that religion in Government. It's the same in the US, most major figures are Christian, certainly every President has been.

It's also known as the Jewish state because it's the only state that has Judaism as a majority, this isn't difficult to understand.

And yes, Israel does act as a homeland for the Jews, but it, unlike the Palestine envisioned by Hamas, is not a theocracy, as its laws are not based on religion, nor does it exclude people based on religion, ergo, not theocracy.

The problem with your view is that somehow you think the goddamn European and Russian Jews had some kind of a right to reestablish the country of Israel after WWII because the Nazis had treated them like crap. This is where you fail because in order for them to do that they had to defeat and subjugate the people that were already living on the land. That is not right.

Another myth. As I have repeatedly pointed out to you flash, Israel was envisoned in the Balfour Declaration BEFORE WWII. And I don't believe that they have a right to establish their country because their religion says that that is their land, they have a right because they were at the time a large minority (33%) holding most of the wealth with an active independance movement.

Originally Posted by Barry

Like I asked, what else can we go on?
What do you base your idea upon, that Iran is only developing Nuclear technology for peaceful purposes?
Do you base this on what Ahmadinejad has said to the UN?
Do you base it on what El Baradai has told the UN?

Come on, what DO you base your opinions on?

Well the bold-ed comments relate to the US and Israel both have nuclear weapons, the US is the only nation to use them as an act of war, and has considered using them other times and Israel is one of the most likely nations to use them.

That is why it is hypocritical to condemn Iran, they have nukes but condemn them with gay abandon, even though they have no evidence to prove that their ambitions are anything more than power.

I fail to understand why everyone is so worried about the Possibility that Iran many consider looking at getting nukes, when Israel has them already and would be happy to use them.

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

I fail to understand why everyone is so worried about the Possibility that Iran many consider looking at getting nukes, when Israel has them already and would be happy to use them.

Maybe it is because Iran clearly support terrorism and several terrorist organisations.
They have also threatened to wipe Israel off the map.
They are also sharing research and technology with North Korea, another rogue state.

But that's no reason for anyone to worry is it?

Originally Posted by Barry

Maybe it is because Iran clearly support terrorism and several terrorist organisations.

The Israeli govt is no better.

Originally Posted by Barry

They have also threatened to wipe Israel off the map.

The UN had no right to create Israel, and Israel is responsible for the understandable hatred to it by many nations.

Originally Posted by Barry

They are also sharing research and technology with North Korea, another rogue state.

The USA shares research and technology with Israel so should we be sanctioning the USA?

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

The Israeli govt is no better.

Yes it is, it's democratic for one thing. There's also a separation of Church and state.

The UN had no right to create Israel, and Israel is responsible for the understandable hatred to it by many nations.

The UN had no choice but to create Israel, Israel was going to happen, they just tried to make it a peaceful, fair process, something the Arabs couldn't allow.

The USA shares research and technology with Israel so should we be sanctioning the USA?

Except you would then lose the world's largest market...

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

The Israeli govt is no better.

Yes it is. The Israeli Defence Forces take as much care as possible to avoid injury and deaths to civilians.
I am sick of hearing that the Gazan population, who were freed of Israeli control when they withdrew 4 years ago have been so oppressed that they can't help themselves. They smashed up the huge market gardening greenhouses the Israelis left for them , rather than work them to feed themselves. They launched 7,000 (SEVEN THOUSAND) ROCKETS into Israel, starting on the day that Israel completed their withdrawal. Each one of those rockets was aimed at civilian deaths, kindergartens, and causing as much civilian suffering as possible. Each rocket is a war crime.
When Israel had warned and warned and warned again, that Hamas refrain from these attacks, eventually they had to do something to invade Gaza and take out the terrorists. This was not a war crime.
You may think that war in itself is a war crime, but it is not.

The UN had no right to create Israel, and Israel is responsible for the understandable hatred to it by many nations.

I'm not quite sure how you can say this?
You are duplicitous regarding the UN.
You support them when they denounce Israel in numerous UN resolution, but you don't support their democratic creation of the state of Israel.

The USA shares research and technology with Israel so should we be sanctioning the USA?

Sanction the USA? - No.
Actually, I think you will find that the finest brains in the world are in Israel. That could be seen as a racist thing to say, but it is backed up by world patent registrations.

Originally Posted by Barry

Yes it is. The Israeli Defence Forces take as much care as possible to avoid injury and deaths to civilians.

Yea, like when they dropped white phosphorus on a school?

Originally Posted by Barry

I am sick of hearing that the Gazan population, who were freed of Israeli control when they withdrew 4 years ago have been so oppressed that they can't help themselves. They smashed up the huge market gardening greenhouses the Israelis left for them , rather than work them to feed themselves.

The people in Gaza are brave brave people far better than the scummy Israeli baby killers.

They go in kick Palestinians onto the street and give the homes to Israelis, There land in Israel/Palestine is taken by the Israelis, there is nowhere in Israel or Palestine that they can go apart from refugee camps.

Or how the Isralis deprive the palestinians of food, water and power.

Originally Posted by Barry

They launched 7,000 (SEVEN THOUSAND) ROCKETS into Israel, starting on the day that Israel completed their withdrawal. Each one of those rockets was aimed at civilian deaths, kindergartens, and causing as much civilian suffering as possible. Each rocket is a war crime. When Israel had warned and warned and warned again, that Hamas refrain from these attacks, eventually they had to do something to invade Gaza and take out the terrorists.

The only terrorists in Israel/Palestine is the IDF and Mossad.

But when the IDF bomb, shoot innocents that is not a war crime to you?

Don't you remember Flashes post, where he was talking about meeting Israelis who boasted about killing civilians?

Originally Posted by Barry

I'm not quite sure how you can say this?

You are duplicitous regarding the UN.
You support them when they denounce Israel in numerous UN resolution, but you don't support their democratic creation of the state of Israel.

I don't like the UN occasionally they do good things like when the denounce Zionism. One of the problems with the UN is the security council's power of veto. The USA vetoes most of the actions against Israel by the UN.

Originally Posted by Barry

Sanction the USA? - No.

See the double standards

Originally Posted by Barry

Actually, I think you will find that the finest brains in the world are in Israel. That could be seen as a racist thing to say, but it is backed up by world patent registrations.

So because Israel has alot of patents that makes it ok to kill innocent civilians every day?

Originally Posted by Kiwi 1691

Yea, like when they dropped white phosphorus on a school?

They used white phosphorous flares yes, not shells or bombs.

Which is far better than Hamas, who did use white phosphorous shells.
Phosphorus mortar shell detected in Negev - Israel News, Ynetnews

Furthermore, millions of leaflets were dropped in areas prior to bombings, warning of the attacks in addition to over 200, 000 calls to residents warning them that Hamas was operating in the area and it was now targeted. They also established an aid center on the border for civilian causalities as well as allowing aid through into Gaza.

The people in Gaza are brave brave people far better than the scummy Israeli baby killers.

They go in kick Palestinians onto the street and give the homes to Israelis, There land in Israel/Palestine is taken by the Israelis, there is nowhere in Israel or Palestine that they can go apart from refugee camps.

Or how the Isralis deprive the palestinians of food, water and power.

The people of Gaza, having elected terrorists, are enemies of Israel.

And taking their land? Go back to the maps posted by Flash of Palestine. You see the green bits? That's Palestinian land, which they threw away when they attacked Israel. Maybe they should stop trying to take Israeli land and kill Israeli children before they go crying.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

They used white phosphorous flares yes, not shells or bombs.

Which is far better than Hamas, who did use white phosphorous shells.
Phosphorus mortar shell detected in Negev - Israel News, Ynetnews

Furthermore, millions of leaflets were dropped in areas prior to bombings, warning of the attacks in addition to over 200, 000 calls to residents warning them that Hamas was operating in the area and it was now targeted. They also established an aid center on the border for civilian causalities as well as allowing aid through into Gaza.


The people of Gaza, having elected terrorists, are enemies of Israel.

And taking their land? Go back to the maps posted by Flash of Palestine. You see the green bits? That's Palestinian land, which they threw away when they attacked Israel. Maybe they should stop trying to take Israeli land and kill Israeli children before they go crying.

A couple of points:

1. Israel used white phosphorus flares that fell on civilian areas - it is rather moot as to whether there were used as flares or shells, the results weren't that different. Just one of a number of crimes committed by the IDF, who have a long, long history of criminal activity;

2. Frankly, I just don't believe that Hamas has phosphorus weapons and I don't know of any international group who believe it either;

3. Leafleting heavily populated civilian areas telling them that you are shortly to be attacked does not negate the responsibility of the IDF not to attack civilian areas. The Israelis did the same thing in Lebanon, managing to attack and kill several fleeing civilians. What the hell were the civilian population to do - they couldn't leave Gaza if they wanted to, and did you really think they would rise up and fight Hamas, what with, sticks and stones? Do you honest believe that it is the Gazans fault that the IDF are so discriminate and are so ready to kill women and children and in such numbers?

4. You might have missed the point that Israel has been essentially blockading the Gaza Strip since Hamas were democratically elected. Hamas are Islamofascists; a sign of how desperate the Gazans are after so many years of targetted killings, repression and enforced economic poverty;

5. Check your history books - Israel was formed as the result of unchecked foreign immigration by European Jews, immigrants who ethnically cleansed many areas of Palestinians, who repress and oppress those who are left, refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. Israel is a racist, fascist state who thinks nothing of committing war crimes to safeguard its own interests and position of racial or religious supremacy.

Israel, the true fascist state.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

A couple of points:

1. Israel used white phosphorus flares that fell on civilian areas - it is rather moot as to whether there were used as flares or shells, the results weren't that different. Just one of a number of crimes committed by the IDF, who have a long, long history of criminal activity;

3. Leafleting heavily populated civilian areas telling them that you are shortly to be attacked does not negate the responsibility of the IDF not to attack civilian areas. The Israelis did the same thing in Lebanon, managing to attack and kill several fleeing civilians. What the hell were the civilian population to do - they couldn't leave Gaza if they wanted to, and did you really think they would rise up and fight Hamas, what with, sticks and stones? Do you honest believe that it is the Gazans fault that the IDF are so discriminate and are so ready to kill women and children and in such numbers?

Hamas uses Gazans as human shields, that's a fact. They repeatedly use school playgrounds and ovals to fire their rockets and hide amongst civilian residences. When the enemy uses tactics such as this, you can hardly expect minimal civilian casualties. If that's how Hamas wants to conduct their war, in maximising civilian casualties, then it is not Israel's fault. Show me an instance where the IDF has specifically targeted civilians for no reason.

4. You might have missed the point that Israel has been essentially blockading the Gaza Strip since Hamas were democratically elected. Hamas are Islamofascists; a sign of how desperate the Gazans are after so many years of targetted killings, repression and enforced economic poverty;

Democratically elected or not, Hamas is at war with Israel, as the government of Gaza is at war Israel, then it makes Gaza an enemy state. Do you expect any state to allow its enemies resources?

5. Check your history books - Israel was formed as the result of unchecked foreign immigration by European Jews, immigrants who ethnically cleansed many areas of Palestinians, who repress and oppress those who are left, refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. Israel is a racist, fascist state who thinks nothing of committing war crimes to safeguard its own interests and position of racial or religious supremacy.

First of all, show me an instance of ethnic cleansing. Secondly, show me how Israel is racist? There are arab Israelis with identical rights as Jewish ones. In fact Muslims that fought in the IDF in the Gaza war were denied Muslim burial rights or burials in Muslim cemeteries.

Israel, the true fascist state.

Israel is a democractic, secular state with freedom of assembly and free speech, so explain how exactly it's fascist.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Hamas uses Gazans as human shields, that's a fact. They repeatedly use school playgrounds and ovals to fire their rockets and hide amongst civilian residences. When the enemy uses tactics such as this, you can hardly expect minimal civilian casualties. If that's how Hamas wants to conduct their war, in maximising civilian casualties, then it is not Israel's fault. Show me an instance where the IDF has specifically targeted civilians for no reason.

So, the nub of your argument is that Israel is not responsible for its own actions, it can transfer that responsibility onto the party it is fighting? Surely this is both illogical and illegal.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth, the IDF were well aware that anything other than a specifically targetted attack would result in massive civilian deaths. The IDF has a long history of disproportionate attacks resulting in 1,000s of civilian deaths.

If you want to learn more, check out the UN report on the Gaza fighting, also check out reports on the IDF's actions in the West Bank and Lebanon. The evidence is clear and pretty overwhelming against the IDF.

No where have I argued that the IDF deliberately target civilians, it is at be reckless and at worse indifferent to civilian deaths.

Democratically elected or not, Hamas is at war with Israel, as the government of Gaza is at war Israel, then it makes Gaza an enemy state. Do you expect any state to allow its enemies resources?

You have failed to address my point - as well as my point about Israel being the result of unchecked mass immigration - Gaza is not a state, Israel has a legal and moral responsibility for it.

First of all, show me an instance of ethnic cleansing. Secondly, show me how Israel is racist? There are arab Israelis with identical rights as Jewish ones. In fact Muslims that fought in the IDF in the Gaza war were denied Muslim burial rights or burials in Muslim cemeteries.

Look at Deit Yassin, look at what they are doing in East Jerusalem and the West Bank: ethnic cleansing.

Israel is a democractic, secular state with freedom of assembly and free speech, so explain how exactly it's fascist.

Israel is a fascist state: it refuses a right of return to Palestinian refugees, something it is require to do under international law, and refuses to allow the return because Jews would no longer being in the majority. That my friend is the true nature of fascism.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

So, the nub of your argument is that Israel is not responsible for its own actions, it can transfer that responsibility onto the party it is fighting? Surely this is both illogical and illegal.

No, Israel has done all it can to avoid civilian casualties and still maintain an active offensive against Hamas, you can ask nothing more of them.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth, the IDF were well aware that anything other than a specifically targetted attack would result in massive civilian deaths. The IDF has a long history of disproportionate attacks resulting in 1,000s of civilian deaths.

So you're saying they shouldn't defend themselves from Hamas rockets because the enemy hides amongst civilians?

If you want to learn more, check out the UN report on the Gaza fighting, also check out reports on the IDF's actions in the West Bank and Lebanon. The evidence is clear and pretty overwhelming against the IDF.

The UN reporting was bias against Israel. So much so that even Goldstone, they author of the report that was the UN's keystone, withdrew his support for it.

No where have I argued that the IDF deliberately target civilians, it is at be reckless and at worse indifferent to civilian deaths.

As I have already stated, the IDF has taken all reasonable assurances to avoid civilian casualties, far better than the Hamas terrorists.

You have failed to address my point - as well as my point about Israel being the result of unchecked mass immigration - Gaza is not a state, Israel has a legal and moral responsibility for it.

Yes it was the result of unchecked immigration, in fact the Ottoman empire actually asked Jews to settle in Palestine to bring capital to the region, which was at the time only sparsely populated.

For all intents and purposes Gaza is a state, and it is not Israel's responsibility since they pulled out.

Look at Deit Yassin, look at what they are doing in East Jerusalem and the West Bank: ethnic cleansing.

Jerusalem (particularly the East) is Israeli, they are moving out non-citizens.

Israel is a fascist state: it refuses a right of return to Palestinian refugees, something it is require to do under international law, and refuses to allow the return because Jews would no longer being in the majority. That my friend is the true nature of fascism.

Neither of those are fascist qualities.

[QUOTE=DCFGS3;90121]No, Israel has done all it can to avoid civilian casualties and still maintain an active offensive against Hamas, you can ask nothing more of them.[QUOTE]

Enlighten me, precisely how and what has "Israel...done all it can to avoid civilian casualties". I would agree that it has done all it can to avoid Israeli civilian casualties, but the Palestinians or even Lebanese for that matter, precisely what have they done?

So you're saying they shouldn't defend themselves from Hamas rockets because the enemy hides amongst civilians?

No. Read what I wrote.

The UN reporting was bias against Israel. So much so that even Goldstone, they author of the report that was the UN's keystone, withdrew his support for it.

Bias is such an easy thing to claim and in Israel's case, such a difficult thing to evidence. The UN report appears to be very evenhanded and most Governments have accepted it as such. Of course Israel and its fanboys will always allege bias, prejudice, anti-semitism for any telling criticism of its actions, most of us take such accusations with a pinch of salt given Israel's history.

As I have already stated, the IDF has taken all reasonable assurances to avoid civilian casualties, far better than the Hamas terrorists.

Which presumably is why they banned reporters from the area, why the BBC, ITV and Sky have all reported upon IDF excesses, i.e. bombing an entire block of civilian flats because of suspicions they are being used by a Hamas spotter. Perhaps what you define as resaonable differs from the majority view.

Yes it was the result of unchecked immigration, in fact the Ottoman empire actually asked Jews to settle in Palestine to bring capital to the region, which was at the time only sparsely populated.

For all intents and purposes Gaza is a state, and it is not Israel's responsibility since they pulled out.

Nice take on history: mass immigration from Europe into Palestine following WWII, hugely changed the cultural balance of Palestine. I find it strange, given your stated (in other posrs) views on immigration that you support immigrants over the displaced original inhabitants.

As for Gaza, its is not a state, it is far far from it and it is oh so very clearly Israel's moral and legal responsibility. Of course the IDF couldn't end Palestinian resistance so it handed the territory over to the Palestinians and bombed, shot and economically punished the Palestinian authority for every act of resistance committed by Hamas and others. Great strategy, clearly designed to reach a final, peaceful settlement.

Jerusalem (particularly the East) is Israeli, they are moving out non-citizens.

East Jerusalem is not Israeli, it is no more Israeli than Iraq was American during their occupation. More ethnic cleansing; Israel is preparing itself for a land settlement with the Palestinians, one where they get everything they want regardless as to true ownership. Theft is theft in any language.

Neither of those are fascist qualities.

Your definition is clearly different from mine. I view Israel as a fascist state created and maintained on Jewish supremacist lines, I don't think I'm alone.

What did you make of Deir Yassin by the way?

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

Enlighten me, precisely how and what has "Israel...done all it can to avoid civilian casualties". I would agree that it has done all it can to avoid Israeli civilian casualties, but the Palestinians or even Lebanese for that matter, precisely what have they done?

Precisely what I said, dropping leaflets, telephone calls, calling off hundreds of air strikes and even allowing aid in. It's absurd to suggest you would give aid to your enemies, and that's exactly what the Israelis did.

No. Read what I wrote.

Yes, aware that an attack would result in civilian casualties. So are you saying they shouldn't attack because of the risk of civilian casualties, despite, as I stated before, Hamas making sure there will always be civilian casualties.

Bias is such an easy thing to claim and in Israel's case, such a difficult thing to evidence. The UN report appears to be very evenhanded and most Governments have accepted it as such. Of course Israel and its fanboys will always allege bias, prejudice, anti-semitism for any telling criticism of its actions, most of us take such accusations with a pinch of salt given Israel's history.

Oh even handed, ok, so that's why they decried Israel for war crimes but conveniently forgot to mention Hamas's war crimes at all, and that their entire report wasn't even supported by its keystone, Goldstone.

Which presumably is why they banned reporters from the area, why the BBC, ITV and Sky have all reported upon IDF excesses, i.e. bombing an entire block of civilian flats because of suspicions they are being used by a Hamas spotter. Perhaps what you define as resaonable differs from the majority view.

Here's Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British troops in Afghanistan, to talk to us;

During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

And do you know why there were no reporters in the Warzone? Because these days few are allowed into Warzones, the NATO doesn't even allow unguided access.

Nice take on history: mass immigration from Europe into Palestine following WWII, hugely changed the cultural balance of Palestine. I find it strange, given your stated (in other posrs) views on immigration that you support immigrants over the displaced original inhabitants.

Except it didn't begin after WWII. It began in the mid 19th Century, when that Palestinian land was a barren, virtually unoccupied wasteland. Jerusalem only had a few tens of thousands inhabitants. Furthermore Jews have always lived in Palestine, so they were the continuous and original inhabitants.

And no, I don't like uncontrolled immigration, which is why I'm against now when we can do something about it, the Ottomans didn't, and this is the result.

As for Gaza, its is not a state, it is far far from it and it is oh so very clearly Israel's moral and legal responsibility. Of course the IDF couldn't end Palestinian resistance so it handed the territory over to the Palestinians and bombed, shot and economically punished the Palestinian authority for every act of resistance committed by Hamas and others. Great strategy, clearly designed to reach a final, peaceful settlement.

A State is a self governing political entity within a defined boundary. That's what Gaza is.

No, after only began economic and military retaliation after continued missile attacks launched from Gaza and the election of Hamas, a group who's main political policy is the destruction of Israel.

East Jerusalem is not Israeli, it is no more Israeli than Iraq was American during their occupation. More ethnic cleansing; Israel is preparing itself for a land settlement with the Palestinians, one where they get everything they want regardless as to true ownership. Theft is theft in any language.

It was under the peace terms laid out up until the 6 Day War, in which Israel took the rest.

Your definition is clearly different from mine. I view Israel as a fascist state created and maintained on Jewish supremacist lines, I don't think I'm alone.

It's because your definition is wrong.

What did you make of Deir Yassin by the way?

A shocking attack carried out by Zionist terrorists.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

Precisely what I said, dropping leaflets, telephone calls, calling off hundreds of air strikes and even allowing aid in. It's absurd to suggest you would give aid to your enemies, and that's exactly what the Israelis did.

And precisely where were the Palestinian civilians to go during the IDF's rather indiscriminate push through Gaza? Its a tired tactic, "oh we warned the population to get out of the way, so its their fault if they stayed". Rather than expose their own troops to the greater risks that come from limited surgical strikes, the IDF chose to fight a full-on engagement in a heavily populated area in the full knowledge that in doing so mass civilian casualties would arise.

It is simply not acceptable to bomb civilians areas and dropping leaflets and making a few telephone calls does not negate the IDF's culpability in this regard. A war crime is a war crime.

Yes, aware that an attack would result in civilian casualties. So are you saying they shouldn't attack because of the risk of civilian casualties, despite, as I stated before, Hamas making sure there will always be civilian casualties.

The IDF strategy on full-on attack against small bands of irregular fighters in a densely populated area is military idiocy and was always going to result in mass civilian casualities. Whatever the diplorable tactics of Hamas, their tactics do not remove responsibility from Israel for its actions.

Oh even handed, ok, so that's why they decried Israel for war crimes but conveniently forgot to mention Hamas's war crimes at all, and that their entire report wasn't even supported by its keystone, Goldstone.

This is blantanly untrue. The report clearly condemned Hamas's firing of missiles at Israeli civilians and stated that Hamas's actions were war crimes.

Again, every report that criticises Israel is met by the same response of bias by the Israelis and their supporters. Apart from the US Govt., no one believes the Israelis.

Here's Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British troops in Afghanistan, to talk to us;
Quote:
During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.
And do you know why there were no reporters in the Warzone? Because these days few are allowed into Warzones, the NATO doesn't even allow unguided access.

I assume the good Col. was present in Gaza during the fighting? I know why there were no reporters present; the Israelis didn't want the world to see precisely what they doing. They didn't want the world to see the indiscriminate nature of their actions, as set out within the UN Report, they didn't want the world to see the maimed bodies of women and children, they didn't want the world to see the inhumanity they inflicted. NATO might not allow unguided access, but it does allow access.

It was under the peace terms laid out up until the 6 Day War, in which Israel took the rest.

I think you'll find that UN Security Resolution 242 requires Israel to withdraw from all occupied territorities. I repeat, East Jerusalem is no more Israeli that occupied Iraq was American, and we all know why Israel continues to ethnically clense such areas.

Except it didn't begin after WWII. It began in the mid 19th Century, when that Palestinian land was a barren, virtually unoccupied wasteland. Jerusalem only had a few tens of thousands inhabitants. Furthermore Jews have always lived in Palestine, so they were the continuous and original inhabitants.

And no, I don't like uncontrolled immigration, which is why I'm against now when we can do something about it, the Ottomans didn't, and this is the result.

The rate of immigration increased massively post WWII, prior to the outbreak of WWII Palestine was a inhabited overwhelmingly by Palestinians (both Muslims and Christians) with Jews representing a tiny minority. The plain truth is that 100,000s of European Jews flooded into Palestine, the rest as they say is history.

A shocking attack carried out by Zionist terrorists

All part of a systematic policy conducted by Zionist supremacists to create a state where Zionist Jews always have supremacy. Still, you deny Israel is a fascist state, so be it.

Originally Posted by The Untalented Mr Ripley

And precisely where were the Palestinian civilians to go during the IDF's rather indiscriminate push through Gaza? Its a tired tactic, "oh we warned the population to get out of the way, so its their fault if they stayed". Rather than expose their own troops to the greater risks that come from limited surgical strikes, the IDF chose to fight a full-on engagement in a heavily populated area in the full knowledge that in doing so mass civilian casualties would arise.

It is simply not acceptable to bomb civilians areas and dropping leaflets and making a few telephone calls does not negate the IDF's culpability in this regard. A war crime is a war crime.

So you want Israel to increase the risk to not only its troops but also its civilians by fighting a limited and ultimately ineffective war against an enemy that is fully intent on using any and all means to kill and maim indiscriminately?

The IDF strategy on full-on attack against small bands of irregular fighters in a densely populated area is military idiocy and was always going to result in mass civilian casualities. Whatever the diplorable tactics of Hamas, their tactics do not remove responsibility from Israel for its actions.

Small and irrgegular? There are upwards of 10, 000 fighters in Gaza, which you point out is a very small area. These forces are highly skilled in urban warfare. It is military suicide to go up against a hardened, fanatical, well-entrenched army in an urban center with infantry. You need to use air support to kill as many as possible.

This is blantanly untrue. The report clearly condemned Hamas's firing of missiles at Israeli civilians and stated that Hamas's actions were war crimes.

Why did Goldstone come out and say this then?

"This draft resolution saddens me as it includes only allegations against Israel . . . There is not a single phrase condemning Hamas as we have done in the report. I hope that the council can modify the text."

They did not.

And you know what else is funny? How come the UNHRC has had 6 special sessions on Israel's human rights abuses, but only 4 for the rest of the world?

I assume the good Col. was present in Gaza during the fighting? I know why there were no reporters present; the Israelis didn't want the world to see precisely what they doing. They didn't want the world to see the indiscriminate nature of their actions, as set out within the UN Report, they didn't want the world to see the maimed bodies of women and children, they didn't want the world to see the inhumanity they inflicted. NATO might not allow unguided access, but it does allow access.

He clearly has some experience in the matter, because you know when he gave that quote? He was addressing the UNHRC at their request about the Gazan War.

Clearly Israel doesn't need to waste its time guiding around reporters, besides they'll probably end up giving biased reports anyway, for example what does this picture look like?

[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Declan/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpg[/IMG]http://contrecourant1.files.wordpres...-grossmann.jpg

I think you'll find that UN Security Resolution 242 requires Israel to withdraw from all occupied territorities. I repeat, East Jerusalem is no more Israeli that occupied Iraq was American, and we all know why Israel continues to ethnically clense such areas.

Umm, why?

The rate of immigration increased massively post WWII, prior to the outbreak of WWII Palestine was a inhabited overwhelmingly by Palestinians (both Muslims and Christians) with Jews representing a tiny minority. The plain truth is that 100,000s of European Jews flooded into Palestine, the rest as they say is history.

In 1939 there was at least 450, 000 Jews in Israel, most likely upwards of 600, 000.

Originally Posted by DCFGS3

So you want Israel to increase the risk to not only its troops but also its civilians by fighting a limited and ultimately ineffective war against an enemy that is fully intent on using any and all means to kill and maim indiscriminately?

Why? Oh I don't know, international law, the Geneva Conventions, common decency. You talk about ineffective wars, well what the IDF did in both Gaza and Lebanon was hardly effective, unless killing civilians was their aim, they did that very well. Using intelligent military tactics does risk troops but certain not the civilian populations of either Israel or Palestine.

International law applies as much to Israel as to anyone else. Gaza was a problem of Israels own making, they chose not to withdraw despite knowing they had a hostile population in that territory. They have bombed, shelled, shot and deprived the Gazan population and precisely what have they achieved......nothing but death and hatred. Great policy.

Small and irrgegular? There are upwards of 10, 000 fighters in Gaza, which you point out is a very small area. These forces are highly skilled in urban warfare. It is military suicide to go up against a hardened, fanatical, well-entrenched army in an urban center with infantry. You need to use air support to kill as many as possible.

You are guessing on numbers. Air support when possible; bombing entire blocks of flats because you suspect a Hamas spotter is located their in is utter madness and worse.

Why did Goldstone come out and say this then?

Quote:
"This draft resolution saddens me as it includes only allegations against Israel . . . There is not a single phrase condemning Hamas as we have done in the report. I hope that the council can modify the text."

I have no idea. Read the report, it clearly criticises Hamas and condemns their war crimes.

Umm, why?

Israel is planning on stealing more Palestinian land prior to any final settlement - they wish to ethnically clense and then re-populate (with Jews) East Jerusalem and the most productive land in the West Bank.

And you want pictures.....look at http://http://desertpeace.wordpress....ave-names-too/ this is a awful reality of what Israel does in the name of its own security. Pathetic.

In 1939 there was at least 450, 000 Jews in Israel, most likely upwards of 600, 000.

In 1939 at best Jews accounted for 30% of the population, now they account for 77% in the state of Israel. If you're a Jew you are more than welcome to be a citizen....Palestinian refugee, no chance. Israel, the fascist state in all its unmasked glory.