Why do we care about this Venables bloke?

[Barry]

A few things...



I thought that given time, this subject would bring out the crazy. So we should be looking to execute children in a fair and just society Midas? Wow




There is no logic. Obviously. But before going off the deep end again octopus, lets look at the alternatives shall we? Either lock them up indefinitely or attempt some form of rehabilitation with provisions. I repeat that these are extraordinary circumstances, the likes of which we have only seen once before, once since and hopefully will rarely see again. The fact that Thompson has been recalled to prison shows the provisions put in place are working. I literally see no other alternative to the course of action taken by the courts, therefore this whole argument is based on very little.

Now getting back to the topic at hand, (remember that?) which was more to do with OUR fascination with this crime, rather than the sentences handed down. In my orginal post, I talked about the 'growing pressure' on the the justice system to release details of WHY Thompson was recalled, in the days since, newspapers and Carol Vorderman (noted political commentator that she is) have called for this information to be made available to the public. Why? What good will it do? What reason is there for it?

Thompson?
You are obviously not keeping up, DTE.
Get with the flow!

[DTE]

Thompson?
You are obviously not keeping up, DTE.
Get with the flow!

Oh yeah. Venables.

[Midas]

I thought that given time, this subject would bring out the crazy. So we should be looking to execute children in a fair and just society Midas? Wow

And...

Yes most children are, although not that many really understand death, they are also very easily desensitised to violence. Doc's already addressed it, but I somehow doubt you meant to imply that a child should face the death penalty. As for locked up for their natural lives, I think it's more than natural to want to see revenge, but please can we remember they were children, is it not a huge punishment to be taken away from your parents and forced to grow up as captives.

In the wider sense, if the law was changed to reintroduce the death penalty for certain types of murder - say premeditated murder - and someone was found guilty of that crime, in my view they should have to face the penalty irrespective of age. If they were old enough for a court to have said "guilty", that should be the end of the matter, subject to any appeal, whether they were 10 or 100. OK, maybe the death penalty shouldn't be imposed until say the age of 18, giving offenders under that age time in which to make a plea for clemency based on whatever evidence they could muster during the intervening period, but if someone is guilty of a crime, they should ultimately face the same punishment as anyone else.

It doesn't matter whether they were children or not at the time they committed the crime, they still committed it! I'll say again, if a court found them aware enough to be found guilty in full knowledge of what they'd done, they should face exactly the same penalty as anyone of any age.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

proof? lets kill people to save people...nice logic there

Hi,

you rather simplistically and without logic or concern for facts seemingly entirely overlook recidivism.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Jim Franklin]

The attitudes of some in this post hint at the real reasons why two ten year old's can be so numb that they kill without considering or understanding the consequences of their actions.

Everyone wanted this swept under the carpet, brand them as evil and close the cell door, everyone else gets on with their lives.....HOW SAD and what a damning indictment of the society we all live in.

Should we not care about those two ten year old's, should we not, as a society, be looking for the reasons why this all went so wrong and so many lives were destroyed. Yes James Bulger tragically lost his life, but lets not forget their lives were also shattered in that instant, as was their parents, family and that of James Bulger.

Does no-one wonder why it is that it was James Bulger's mother who ensured they were released from prison, she could so easily of blocked it, she was given the option. Why is SHE the parent seeking information from the Justice Secretary as to why Jon Venables was returned to Prison and why was her only public comment

I am saddened to hear Jon has been returned to Prison, I am angry that I have not been kept informed as promised, I shall do all in my power to find out what went wrong and how I can help

We now hear allegations about fighting, enjoying life (wow this is a crime..I'll cancel my party!!), and now a "serious sexual assault".

The dogs and the scum who report this bile are partly responsible for the creation of the Bulger killers, and so is society. We fail are children in oh so many ways, then blame them when it goes wrong without accepting any responsibility for the failing.

We should all hang our heads in shame.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Good! That"s the affect I wanted. It was VERY disgusting crime he did, along with that other piece of filth. One day almost 2 decades ago (when some of our members were in nursey school, or perhaps wern"t even born) they abducted a little two year old boy, Jamie Bulger, took him to a railway line, then beat him death - real lovely people, 10 0r 110. If you and Greg wish to "stick up" for people like that - FEEL FREE!!! Again, like most other issues, you"re in the minorite. Don"t you ever spare a thought for the people left behind, as well as little Jamie? THAT"s who my pity goes to!

Hi,

I appreciate from other examples you are educationally challenged and have difficulty with comprehension of the written word but may I ask you to find help - some with your condition find it beneficial - and then identify where I have supposedly, in context, 'stuck up' for this particular piece of pond life and when you are unable to seek help in writing a coherent and clear apology for your libel.

Thank you.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

we may well find we all benefit from the facts and comments Daniel Foggo will be leading with in tomorrow's Sunday Times. I gather it was not a minor technicality in the breech of his Parole Conditions and he will be on parole for the rest of his natural life - subject to being banged up without warning at any time if deemed to have broken his Parole Terms.

I still believe his parents MUST bear much of the guilt yet they went unpunished - as with the recent Doncaster case.

May I ask that posters refrain from what seems for some a vicariout pleasure/glee in posting the sordid details and it is for that reason that papers refrained from posting many of the details of the murders of Peter Sutcliff, Ian Brady, the Wests, Strachan, Moira Hindley, Mary Bell and Christie, and the deaths of the poor woman murdered in Bakewell which the Journalist shamefully built an OBE & career on, now exposed and working in North Wales but as a result of his dishonesty the killer is now free.

It will probably be on line between 01:00hrs. & 03:00hrs tomorrow. I'll post it here if I remember!

Here is the link CLICK HERE

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Jim Franklin]

For what it's worth, all the reporting by the press is pure speculation. Reporting the details of this case would be in breach of a court order and the Justice Secretary reiterated this warning today.

[JacquesMagique]

Good! That"s the affect I wanted. It was VERY disgusting crime he did, along with that other piece of filth. One day almost 2 decades ago (when some of our members were in nursey school, or perhaps wern"t even born) they abducted a little two year old boy, Jamie Bulger, took him to a railway line, then beat him death - real lovely people, 10 0r 110. If you and Greg wish to "stick up" for people like that - FEEL FREE!!!

I'm not sticking up for anyone but you've clearly got just as twisted a mind as they have, if you think like you said.

Again, like most other issues, you"re in the minorite.

That makes my opinion no less relevant. Excuse me for not falling in line with the sheeple.

[Binnman]

I often have a wee chuckle when I hear parents, society, poverty, unemployment etc, being held responsible for crimes being committed (whether by 10 year olds or not).

Many thousands suffer from such problems and yet only a very few end up making the headlines. Surely if bad parenting were at the root of criminal behaviour, the courts would be collapsing under the torrent of young murderers, rapists etc etc.

And yet apart from the few exceptions, kids from broken homes, poverty, abusive parents, grow up and become normal members of the community..................just like they have done since time began.

Let's consider the manner in which the Police got onto Thomson and Venables so quickly after the crime. It wasn't as a result of some brilliant detective work on a par with Messrs Holmes and Watson, but due to something rather more sinister.

Children from the school attended by the two (on hearing about the murder) reported to their parents that Thomson and Venables had been discussing taking a young child for some time prior to the incident.

That's not poverty! That's not unemployment!

That's two wicked little ratbags, who because of the interference from European Courts got released far too early from custody and (as now appears) learned nothing from their punishment.

[Barry]

Actually Binnman, I'm not sure that 24/7/365 cosseting constitutes punishment... But I get your points in that last post very well.

[pauli007001]

Because revenge is an emotional reaction not a rational one. In this case I believe the law did fail society, but that is not justification for taking the law into our own hands. Next we will see vigilante gangs and lynch mobs.

Don't get me wrong, I share your emotional response but try to control it in the interests of maintaining a civilised society. I think the murder carried out by Venables and Thompson was the conscious act of two nasty, vicious, cruel and evil children who knew exactly what they were doing.

Controll of Human Emotion is a trait of the NUlab regime, the part wish to controll most is the part that dilutes the loyalty they demand, they detest the family because of the love a family feels for its members and the loyalty and emotio in that family.Eradicate all emotion and replace it with cynicism and fear.

Far better in my opinion to throw away the key rather than reward those who commit these crimes.These two little ****s were rewarded for their crime, rewarded with a pampered and fun upbringing that many kids in the UK can only dream about, kids who are not savage killers suffer????

[fubar]

mmmmm funny how society allowed that to happen isn't it??

[Opinionated]

Here's an interesting take on it by someone who was present during the trial, swritten shortly after their release.

"...the progress the boys have made in their secure units, the remorse they have shown (in Thompson's case this was conspicuously absent during the trial), and the limited risk of their reoffending. But at the heart of it is an acknowledgement, which the Sun and the former home secretary Michael Howard still feel unable to make, that to spend your whole adolescence in custody for something you did as a child is punishment enough. It is not as if the punishment will end on the day the boys are released. To come out after years inside is hard for any prisoner; for these two, who were only 10 when their confinement began and whose crime has made them infamous, it will be difficult in the extreme, whatever strategies to protect them are put in place.
...we have responsibilities as a society - even towards children who kill."

[pauli007001]

Here's an interesting take on it by someone who was present during the trial, swritten shortly after their release.

"...the progress the boys have made in their secure units, the remorse they have shown (in Thompson's case this was conspicuously absent during the trial), and the limited risk of their reoffending. But at the heart of it is an acknowledgement, which the Sun and the former home secretary Michael Howard still feel unable to make, that to spend your whole adolescence in custody for something you did as a child is punishment enough. It is not as if the punishment will end on the day the boys are released. To come out after years inside is hard for any prisoner; for these two, who were only 10 when their confinement began and whose crime has made them infamous, it will be difficult in the extreme, whatever strategies to protect them are put in place.
...we have responsibilities as a society - even towards children who kill."

We have no responsibility to the Innocent?

We should celebrate the Lives of thompson and Venables whilst celebrating the death of the irrelivant Jaimie Bulger?

Why are we supposed to celebrate criminals and despise the victims in todays UK?

[Opinionated]

We have no responsibility to the Innocent?

Yes to protect them and boy how we failed!

We should celebrate the Lives of thompson and Venables whilst celebrating the death of the irrelivant Jaimie Bulger?

celebrate? No, never said that! Morn the loss of their childhoods too -yes.

Why are we supposed to celebrate criminals and despise the victims in todays UK?

That's just silly and so far off what anyone is suggesting.

[octopus]

Hi,

I appreciate from other examples you are educationally challenged and have difficulty with comprehension of the written word but may I ask you to find help - some with your condition find it beneficial - and then identify where I have supposedly, in context, 'stuck up' for this particular piece of pond life and when you are unable to seek help in writing a coherent and clear apology for your libel.

Thank you.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

I could reply to this post by being equaly as sarcastic, ignorant and rude as you. However, I was fulled by anger and educatiionaly challanged or not that is not my way, and I can say that I base my posts on my values. Values that reflect my disgust, horror and shame, that a crime of this nature could be commited by any living person, let alone two young children. Having said that, I don"t consider these "creatures" human beings in my own mind, and I find yours, and other members attitudes of indifference, frankly shocking. It goes against all human nature; espeacialy as they only serverd eight years.

In all other places people are endorsing my approach to this issue, which proves to me they are normal people, with normal values. They, like me, are angry they were released after only eight years in the first place. You see it in the papers, the internet, people in the street - everybody you work with. True, as Major says you can"t allow revenge to rule. The courts, no. US THE PUBLIC CERTAINLY CAN, AND WE WILL! WE HAVE THE RIGHT! Afterall, it is our children, our mothers, our fathers, our brothers, our sisters, our friends that are being slaughtered, decade in, decade out. Applogies to any GUADIAN readers, or "do-gooders"!

[octopus]

I'm not sticking up for anyone but you've clearly got just as twisted a mind as they have, if you think like you said.



That makes my opinion no less relevant. Excuse me for not falling in line with the sheeple.

No, you are entitled to your view although you don"t think I am entitled to mine - and I will ignore your insult. However, have you ever considered the "sheep" might be right this time? Afterall, we are all potential victims of people like Jon Venables. Think about it!

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

I could reply to this post by being equaly as sarcastic, ignorant and rude as you. However, I was fulled by anger and educatiionaly challanged or not that is not my way, and I can say that I base my posts on my values. Values that reflect my disgust, horror and shame, that a crime of this nature could be commited by any living person, let alone two young children. Having said that, I don"t consider these "creatures" human beings in my own mind, and I find yours, and other members attitudes of indifference, frankly shocking. It goes against all human nature; espeacialy as they only serverd eight years.

In all other places people are endorsing my approach to this issue, which proves to me they are normal people, with normal values. They, like me, are angry they were released after only eight years in the first place. You see it in the papers, the internet, people in the street - everybody you work with. True, as Major says you can"t allow revenge to rule. The courts, no. US THE PUBLIC CERTAINLY CAN, AND WE WILL! WE HAVE THE RIGHT! Afterall, it is our children, our mothers, our fathers, our brothers, our sisters, our friends that are being slaughtered, decade in, decade out. Applogies to any GUADIAN readers, or "do-gooders"!

Hi,

my comment was made because you were so offensively at variance in your attributions to me as to be risible and thus an appology was clearly in order.

To reinforce that fact I admonished that you would need to bring provenance to support your libel or unequivocally withdraw the libel and appologise.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[octopus]

A few things...



I thought that given time, this subject would bring out the crazy. So we should be looking to execute children in a fair and just society Midas? Wow




There is no logic. Obviously. But before going off the deep end again octopus, lets look at the alternatives shall we? Either lock them up indefinitely or attempt some form of rehabilitation with provisions. I repeat that these are extraordinary circumstances, the likes of which we have only seen once before, once since and hopefully will rarely see again. The fact that Thompson has been recalled to prison shows the provisions put in place are working. I literally see no other alternative to the course of action taken by the courts, therefore this whole argument is based on very little.

Now getting back to the topic at hand, (remember that?) which was more to do with OUR fascination with this crime, rather than the sentences handed down. In my orginal post, I talked about the 'growing pressure' on the the justice system to release details of WHY Thompson was recalled, in the days since, newspapers and Carol Vorderman (noted political commentator that she is) have called for this information to be made available to the public. Why? What good will it do? What reason is there for it?

The fascination with this crime is fulled by the fact that they should not have been let out at all. Whenever this crime is brought back to the public eye, as with others such as the Moors murders, you will get a reaction such as the one displayed by myself - AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS! Crimes such as this, outrage public decency, and I make no apology for myself.

The public have EVERY right to know where these people are. Afterall, would YOU like Ian Brady, Gary Glitter or Jon Venables living next door to YOU - AND YOUR KIDS? I CERTAINLY WOULDN"T, I don"t know about you? People such as Venables and Brady belong in jail.

In the case of Ian Brady he should have been hanged as he was an adult. Venables, I agree, you can"t execute ten-year-olds, even I wouldn"t advocate that, and I support the death penalty. But what you can do is lock them up for good - 100-years, if that"s how long they live for! Rehabilitation, not for people such as Venables

[octopus]

Hi,

my comment was made because you were so offensively at variance in your attributions to me as to be risible and thus an appology was clearly in order.

To reinforce that fact I admonished that you would need to bring provenance to support your libel or unequivocally withdraw the libel and appologise.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

Frankly, Greg I find your remarks offensive, also, and I am sorry you feel that way. This case makes me angry and I am astonished it doesn"t make you angry also. But when you endorsed Jacques post, you endorsed his apparent indifference, also, Sorry, that"s my view, although I am NOT entitled to it, it seems.

[Don]

I am reminded of what your most famous play write and poet said, through the character of Portia, in "The Merchant Of Venice". It was 'only' a play, and the quote concerns usury, not murder, but the principle was true then and is now.

"The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes...."


The Merchant of Venice, Act IV, Scene 1

[pauli007001]

I am reminded of what your most famous play write and poet said, through the character of Portia, in "The Merchant Of Venice". It was 'only' a play, and the quote concerns usury, not murder, but the principle was true then and is now.

"The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes...."


The Merchant of Venice, Act IV, Scene 1

Mercy, yes, they were jailed and not executed, there is the mercy.Releasing them was flipping the bird to Jamie Bulgers Family and the families of all murdered kids, it is as I have said a part of the larger trend in Nulabland to worship the criminals and demonise the victim/the normal honest guy in the street, you would have to see it to believe it but it is the way things are in the UK even though many have been conditioned by Mass media via state controlled TV/Radio to disbelieve the truth when they see it.

[Jim Franklin]

I often have a wee chuckle when I hear parents, society, poverty, unemployment etc, being held responsible for crimes being committed (whether by 10 year olds or not).

Many thousands suffer from such problems and yet only a very few end up making the headlines. Surely if bad parenting were at the root of criminal behaviour, the courts would be collapsing under the torrent of young murderers, rapists etc etc.

And yet apart from the few exceptions, kids from broken homes, poverty, abusive parents, grow up and become normal members of the community..................just like they have done since time began.

Let's consider the manner in which the Police got onto Thomson and Venables so quickly after the crime. It wasn't as a result of some brilliant detective work on a par with Messrs Holmes and Watson, but due to something rather more sinister.

Children from the school attended by the two (on hearing about the murder) reported to their parents that Thomson and Venables had been discussing taking a young child for some time prior to the incident.

That's not poverty! That's not unemployment!

That's two wicked little ratbags, who because of the interference from European Courts got released far too early from custody and (as now appears) learned nothing from their punishment.

Binman, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but nurture and environment play crucial roles in the development of a child. Each on their own is unlikely to produce a killer, but couple that to bad or indifferent parenting and a society that really has little regard, then you do have the ingredients that will conspire together to create a killer(s).

You could call this a plane crash waiting to happen, on it's own an individual error in the maintenance of a plane is unlikely to bring it down, but couple that with other systematic or repeated errors, complacency and some arrogance, and 400 people are dead....all you have to do is watch Air-crash Investigation to see this. Each of these disasters is thankfully rare when compared to the number of flights taking place, and the same is true with people.

Regardless of outside factors some people will always be weak, some strong and some downright sadistic and turn into killers. It is not one thing that creates these, but a whole raft, so to scoff at any factor that may be present is narrow minded and risks missing the point in the future.

[Binnman]

Binman, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but nurture and environment play crucial roles in the development of a child. Each on their own is unlikely to produce a killer, but couple that to bad or indifferent parenting and a society that really has little regard, then you do have the ingredients that will conspire together to create a killer(s).

You could call this a plane crash waiting to happen, on it's own an individual error in the maintenance of a plane is unlikely to bring it down, but couple that with other systematic or repeated errors, complacency and some arrogance, and 400 people are dead....all you have to do is watch Air-crash Investigation to see this. Each of these disasters is thankfully rare when compared to the number of flights taking place, and the same is true with people.

Regardless of outside factors some people will always be weak, some strong and some downright sadistic and turn into killers. It is not one thing that creates these, but a whole raft, so to scoff at any factor that may be present is narrow minded and risks missing the point in the future.

Jim,

There may have been some merit to your argument, had social depravation, bad parenting and poverty resulted in a raft of child killers. The fact is that apart from a few rare occurences, this is not the case.

Far too often in recent years, it has been de rigueur, to have "so called" experts blaming social, family, economic or ethnicity for all the ills that befall an accused person. I do not recall one occasion, where a Social Worker has actually stood up and said, "You know what, he/she is just a wicked little b*gger, who will never change"

As to my ignoring anything, if you read my post again, I stated "being held responsible" not "contributing". For sure, some of these factors may play a part in the resulting problem, but many of those "experts" would have us believe that they are the cause. That is nothing but a load of b.s.

[Yeti]

At Ten Years old, I was playing with my Lego Castles, Star wars figures and enjoying climbing trees and getting muddy.

And my parents generally knew exactly where I was at all times.

These two ten year olds took and three year old from a shopping centre and tortured and murder him.

There is clearly something wrong with the way they think, you don’t need to be a psychologist to work that one out. Are they/were they serial killers in the making, hard to tell really, but at the end of the day we should never have to find out.

They took a life with no justification for no reason other than they could, did they plan to kill him or was it just a spur of the moment thing? Does it really mater whether they planned it? The fact is they killed another person deliberately.

Now we live in an enlightened country that has banned the death penalty, In my opinion it should be brought back for curtain crimes, premeditated murder (not man slaughter), child abuse, serial rapists and terrorist ( who have killed or maimed). But I am not in charge so I do not get to change the rule of law, should these people be locked up for life? Yes life should mean life not 10 -25 will good behavior These people are not curable or treatable, lock them up and keep them there. Most of the car thieves and burglars re-offend regardless of the rehabilitation there receive, do your really think it works on murders?

Take away the TV’s, pool tables, mobile phones and drugs, make them work for a living in prison to pay for there board and lodgings.

Regards

Neil.

[octopus]

Jim,

There may have been some merit to your argument, had social depravation, bad parenting and poverty resulted in a raft of child killers. The fact is that apart from a few rare occurences, this is not the case.

Far too often in recent years, it has been de rigueur, to have "so called" experts blaming social, family, economic or ethnicity for all the ills that befall an accused person. I do not recall one occasion, where a Social Worker has actually stood up and said, "You know what, he/she is just a wicked little b*gger, who will never change"

As to my ignoring anything, if you read my post again, I stated "being held responsible" not "contributing". For sure, some of these factors may play a part in the resulting problem, but many of those "experts" would have us believe that they are the cause. That is nothing but a load of b.s.

That is the age old excuse! If you brought back capital punishment and life without parole for "little charmers" like we are discussing - watch the homicide fiqures drop. Frankly I am not interested in their hard luck stories - WE"VE ALL GOT THOSE!

[Yeti]

That is the age old excuse! If you brought back capital punishment and life without parole for "little charmers" like we are discussing - watch the homicide figures drop. Frankly I am not interested in their hard luck stories - WE"VE

ALLGOT THOSE!

There fact that there are no real "deterrents" anymore is probably have the reason we have all the social problems that are afflicting the country, Asbo’s are pointless. Bring back capital and corporal punishment, we need to get back to the days of teachers being able to give you a clip around the ear or throw board rubbers about, so people know what they can and can't get away with. When the local copper knew who you were, where you lived and if you mis-behaved your parents found out and actually cared enough to do something about it.

Need to bring back respect, and common decency.

And when a group of youths half beat someone to death for asking them to turn there sterio down, they should go to jail and not be let out again for a long time.

[octopus]

There fact that there are no real "deterrents" anymore is probably have the reason we have all the social problems that are afflicting the country, Asbo’s are pointless. Bring back capital and corporal punishment, we need to get back to the days of teachers being able to give you a clip around the ear or throw board rubbers about, so people know what they can and can't get away with. When the local copper knew who you were, where you lived and if you mis-behaved your parents found out and actually cared enough to do something about it.

Need to bring back respect, and common decency.

And when a group of youths half beat someone to death for asking them to turn there sterio down, they should go to jail and not be let out again for a long time.

Spot on! Good sound common sense; we certainly need a lot more of it.

[Yeti]

Spot on! Good sound common sense; we certainly need a lot more of it.

Why thank you! Maybe I should run for office! LOL!

[octopus]

Why thank you! Maybe I should run for office! LOL!

The COUNTRY needs us!