America's nightmare of it's sick poor.

[flash]

Which basic economic principles are these, oh wise one?

It's amusing how you both feel the need to attack myself, rather than actually addressing the issue.

I am not attacking you at all and you are the one not addressing the issues.

You are coming up with some real loony stuff and I want to know what your real convictions are.

I suspect you really haven't thought too much about the crap you are spewing because it doesn't make much sense.

Don’t feel too bad. When I was your age I thought I knew everything also. Fortunately I didn’t go to a stupid Left Wing University so I was able to get a good education. I went to a university that taught real world economics.

[pauli007001]

You're getting to the stage where noone can take you seriously. I refuse to believe that you are being serious now, you're just trying to wind people up. Consider this a warning.

Agree with me or be Banned(translation from socialist Nuspeak)!!!!

No other opinions are acceptable!!!!!!

Oh and oddly enough Midas infracted me for critisising the BNP, so i guess this is a socialist totalitarian forum, and those who disagree are banned????

[JacquesMagique]

I am not attacking you at all and you are the one not addressing the issues.

You are coming up with some real loony stuff and I want to know what your real convictions are.

Well to be fair neither of us are disccusing the topic of "America's nightmare of it's sick poor", though I think the idea of exploitation is markedly more relevant than my experiences of the real world. It's not 'loony', you just disagree with it. It's you who is the self labelled "gun nut".

I suspect you really haven't thought too much about the crap you are spewing because it doesn't make much sense.

It doesn't make sense TO YOU. Perhaps this is because YOU havn't thought about it enough.

Don’t feel too bad. When I was your age I thought I knew everything also. Fortunately I didn’t go to a stupid Left Wing University so I was able to get a good education. I went to a university that taught real world economics.

Shame you missed out on that to do engineering though?

[Midas]

No, it's a formal education in BUSINESS. Two very different things, something which you seem to have trouble comprehending. My stepmum has an MBA, but when it comes to talking in any depth about economics, or political economy, she is absolutely clueless.

With all due respect Jacques, just getting a few A-levels doesn't put you in the top league of economic experts either! As I said before, "...can I suggest that you wait until you've had a good few years experience of the real world of industry and commerce before passing judgement...".

But the 35+ years more life experience that I've had over you, which includes living through prolonged periods of both Tory and Labour governments and taking a keen interest in both our own politics and what goes on the the world, seeing quite a lot of it first hand, does rather qualify me to know more than you, whatever you might like to think, your Stepmum as a guide or not!

[Opinionated]

But the 35+ years more life experience that I've had over you, which includes living through prolonged periods of both Tory and Labour governments and taking a keen interest in both our own politics and what goes on the the world, seeing quite a lot of it first hand, does rather qualify me to know more than you, whatever you might like to think, your Stepmum as a guide or not!

Which colours your opinion certainly but doesn't make it any more or less valid! Nor is JM's opinion less valid by lack of experience.
Anyone want to discuss American Health Care or shall we just get the tape measures out?

[Midas]

Which colours your opinion certainly but doesn't make it any more or less valid! Nor is JM's opinion less valid by lack of experience.
Anyone want to discuss American Health Care or shall we just get the tape measures out?

OK, I quite accept it's off topic! Nevertheless it has to be pointed out that there's a world of difference between having opinions based on book theory and a very limited view of the world, to having had decades of real life practical experience. Chalk and cheese.

But as you rightly say, back to American health care......

[pauli007001]

Yes back to american Health care, which in the USA is Brilliant, in Canada it sucks, as for the rest of America some are OK some suck, none are better than the USA for quality healthcare.

[flash]

To get back on subject here is a great explaination of America's health care relative to Canada and the UK. It puts everything in the right perspective.

YouTube - ABC's John Stossel Destroys/Pulverizes/Crushes Obama's anti-American 'Health Care' Plan

[pauli007001]

I for one was educated in quite a conservative school, on the whole. I was certainly in a minority amongst the pupils, and most teachers were evidently right wing. However, what they did was teach us FACTS and leave us to make our own minds up. Happily, if you are eloquent and intelligent, your actual opinion counts for very little in exams in Britain.

I've formed my personal views after reading both left wing and right wing texts, regarding both cases, and trying to find the middle ground on more neutral terms.

Regardless of this, its been proven that political views are strongly inheritable genetically and are linked to personality (e.g. a leftie is more likely to be selfless and loving, while a rightie is more likely to be decisive and ambitious). There's so many factors that its impossible to say.

Flash, the problem is that you are fighting against a straw man. Noone here actually thinks that the USSR or NK economies are (were) better than the Western ones. Problem is, none of these things were ever allowed to develop. For instance, at the birth of capitalism it was far FAR worse than the USSR ever was (look at Victorian England, where most people were starving and working in horrendous conditions with terrible hours for practically no pay). Its had time to develop. Communism never did. Plus, it was plagued by awful people such as Stalin, which just led to growing Western hostility (understandably). The development that it led to in Russia was actually phenomenal - the country started off with one rail line and virtually no industry and finished up competing with the USA. The oppression that Stalin foisted upon Russia was probably the key problem in this development.

None of us here are 'communists' anyway, I just thought I'd make those points. I personally agree with capitalism for the time being, with certain restrictions to prevent the greediest and least ethical individuals for succeeding (read:investment bankers).

Yes but where is the proof of your false claim that i stated that abortion providers are murderers??You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you!!!! Why do i feel i have been here before with you?
Oh thats it you apperently make things up, is it a compulsive thing?

[Midas]

Oh thats it you apperently make things up, is it a compulsive thing?

Please keep away from making such personal comments Pauli!

[pauli007001]

Please keep away from making such personal comments Pauli!

Sure will, as soon as Dougie stops making personal attacks on me by telling lies about what i have posted.I am awaiting the proof that i called abortion providers Murderers, that is a blatent malicious lie!!

[pauli007001]

It won't be in interesting post, I'll just be demonstrating my previous point over and over again with personal examples (which are always fairly crap as far as evidence goes - I only know three or four asian people as friends out of say 200 friends, but it doesn't mean that only 1% of the population is Asian...

I'm finding your debating style very rude. I'm not taking any of this from google, its all my own thinking. I have absolutely no desire to discuss this with you if you're going to carry on in the same way. I've been polite, I'd ask you to do the same.

By the way, 'exploitation' means using someone else's labour to one's own gain without fully compensating them for that labour in a manner that is fair. Unfortunately, 'a manner that is fair' is the term that can be debated to our hearts' content.

Will you please address the points in my previous post?

His debating style is rude?

As opposed to making false claims about what another has posted, then ignoring the persons requests that you proove it.

That would be perfectly ok according to the NULAB ideal debating tactics handbook.Typical lefty tactic, make false statements, personal attacks and then abuse your position to silence opposition.Exactly a socialist trait, definatly anti freedom and definatly oppressive.

Now will you pleas provide evidence to back up you previous points(i say your claims are complete falsehoods, not the first time you have tried and failed at this tactic, is it Dougie, will you never learn, oh i am sure you will use your position as a MOD to silence me which kind of confirms what i say, dosent it).Back up your false claims!!

[DougieG]

His debating style is rude?

As opposed to making false claims about what another has posted, then ignoring the persons requests that you proove it.

That would be perfectly ok according to the NULAB ideal debating tactics handbook.Typical lefty tactic, make false statements, personal attacks and then abuse your position to silence opposition.Exactly a socialist trait, definatly anti freedom and definatly oppressive.

Now will you pleas provide evidence to back up you previous points(i say your claims are complete falsehoods, not the first time you have tried and failed at this tactic, is it Dougie, will you never learn, oh i am sure you will use your position as a MOD to silence me which kind of confirms what i say, dosent it).Back up your false claims!!

I've told you Pauli. State here and now that you are categorically pro-abortion, thinking that it is a wholly positive thing, and I will retract that statement and apologise. You've failed to do so. Is it, or is it not your position? Direct question.

Don't bother dodging it again and copypasting your last post, I won't respond.

[pauli007001]

I've told you Pauli. State here and now that you are categorically pro-abortion, thinking that it is a wholly positive thing, and I will retract that statement and apologise. You've failed to do so. Is it, or is it not your position? Direct question.

Don't bother dodging it again and copypasting your last post, I won't respond.

I refer you to my posting history on the subject of Abortion, never once as you allege, have i called abortion providers murderers, you lie again!!This is also the first time you "told" me to state this, another untruth from you!!!!!

[pauli007001]

http://www.politic.co.uk/abortion/23...html#post45828

For example!!!!!here lies my opinion!!!
No mention of murderers though, where did you get that LIE from Dougie, along with all the others, lies lies and more lies!!!!!!!!Now please show where i called abortion providers murderers!!!

[pauli007001]

http://www.politic.co.uk/abortion/23...html#post46410

Dougie, i guess that as Marxis Nutter agrees with my stance on Abortion, he also has stated that abortionists are murderers, it is there for all to see,he has agreed with my stance on abortion, is he also persistently racist and homophobic, and right wing?????????????????????????
ARE YOU FEELING AS SILLY AS YOU LOOK YET????????????

[pauli007001]

AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Midas]

Several posts on the divergent subject of worker exploitation, a topic in its own right, have been moved to here - http://www.politic.co.uk/morals-ethi...loitation.html.

[Midas]

Pauli, please keep this discussion on topic. It's about medical services in the US, not about having a slanging match about who said what about abortion.

[pauli007001]

Pauli, please keep this discussion on topic. It's about medical services in the US, not about having a slanging match about who said what about abortion.

I didnt bring up the subject of Abortion, dougie brought it up, tell him.Oh I forgot, as a moderator he is infallable and can therefore say what he wants, even if it is false,offensive, insulting and dishonest, libelous and slanderous, perhaps you should have a quiet talk with him.

He told his lies about me on the public forum i have proven him wrong on the public forum, i had no other choice, it had to be done, perhaps we could move it to another thread titled "Dougies false accusations" I would wager it would be a very busy thread!!!!

[Opinionated]

To get back on subject here is a great explaination of America's health care relative to Canada and the UK. It puts everything in the right perspective.

YouTube - ABC's John Stossel Destroys/Pulverizes/Crushes Obama's anti-American 'Health Care' Plan

That's quite a good balanced piece on some of the pitfalls of socialised medicine certainly, although obviously focused on downside and therefore biased. Just a tiny point, I think you'll find that birth control pill (far from being only available as a result of private inovation) is actually widely available as a result of charitable backing and campaigning of Margaret Sanger (in the States) and Marie Stopes and is therefore a good example of when political will can drive innovation.
However, it is an interesting question to ask, would innovation in cures and treatments slow or cease if profit is taken from the equasion?

[Midas]

...... and is therefore a good example of when political will can drive innovation.
However, it is an interesting question to ask, would innovation in cures and treatments slow or cease if profit is taken from the equasion?

I've not got time to say much right now, but briefly my view is that if profit was removed from the equation, whilst innovation wouldn't cease, it would slow down dramatically. Research and new product development in the medical field is horrendously expensive with a very high failure rate along the way, and no-one will plough in the tens or hundreds of millions of pounds needed unless they're assured of getting a good profit return at the end. I suspect that if governments tried to do this, the cost to the taxpayer would be large and would provoke a major backlash.

[flash]

That's quite a good balanced piece on some of the pitfalls of socialised medicine certainly, although obviously focused on downside and therefore biased. Just a tiny point, I think you'll find that birth control pill (far from being only available as a result of private inovation) is actually widely available as a result of charitable backing and campaigning of Margaret Sanger (in the States) and Marie Stopes and is therefore a good example of when political will can drive innovation.
However, it is an interesting question to ask, would innovation in cures and treatments slow or cease if profit is taken from the equasion?

John Stossel is a Libertarian and is well known for calling BS when he sees it. He tkes on both the Left and the Right.

He called BS on Socilaized medicine big time in that piece.

[DougieG]

I didnt bring up the subject of Abortion, dougie brought it up, tell him.Oh I forgot, as a moderator he is infallable and can therefore say what he wants, even if it is false,offensive, insulting and dishonest, libelous and slanderous, perhaps you should have a quiet talk with him.

He told his lies about me on the public forum i have proven him wrong on the public forum, i had no other choice, it had to be done, perhaps we could move it to another thread titled "Dougies false accusations" I would wager it would be a very busy thread!!!!

OK, sorry Pauli! I did say I might be wrong and for you to correct me if I was.

[Tantal]

I am awaiting the proof that i called abortion providers Murderers, that is a blatent malicious lie!!

I'll say it! ABORTION PROVIDERS ARE MURDERERS!

[Midas]

I'll say it! ABORTION PROVIDERS ARE MURDERERS!

This is not an abortion thread. If anyone wishes to discuss that subject again, please do so in the correct place or start another thread.

[JAMC]

So what then, if anything, can we conclude from this train-wreck of a thread?

[flash]

So what then, if anything, can we conclude from this train-wreck of a thread?

You Brits loves dat Socialism and us Americans, being more independently minded, would rather the government stay out of our lives.

That pretty well sums it up, doesn't it?

[JAMC]

You Brits loves dat Socialism and us Americans, being more independently minded, would rather the government stay out of our lives.

That pretty well sums it up, doesn't it?

If by that you mean Britain is to the left of America, then yes. Although I think we all knew that long before this thread came along.

[DougieG]

You Brits loves dat Socialism and us Americans, being more independently minded, would rather the government stay out of our lives.

That pretty well sums it up, doesn't it?

Alternatively, us Brits like to look after everyone in our country and provide excellent healthcare to everyone while you Americans love watching poor people suffer

[flash]

Alternatively, us Brits like to look after everyone in our country and provide excellent healthcare to everyone while you Americans love watching poor people suffer

How much money do you personally give to charities each year?

Or do you think that since the government takes so much money from the people of your country and gives it God only knows who then you are covered and don't have to give anything to charity?

If you are really concerned about people suffering then I expect you will respond with a pretty high number for the amount you give to charity each year.

I give quite a bit because I have compassion for those that suffer. How much do you give? Most Liberals that I know are big on giving away other people’s money but they are pretty damn stingy when it comes to their money.

Since our sons have moved out of the house every Thanksgiving my wife and work to hand out free meals to the poor. We have done that several times at Christmas also in the last few years. Have you ever worked giving food to the poor? If you haven't does that mean that you like to see people suffer?

[DougieG]

How much money do you personally give to charities each year?

Or do you think that since the government takes so much money from the people of your country and gives it God only knows who then you are covered and don't have to give anything to charity?

If you are really concerned about people suffering then I expect you will respond with a pretty high number for the amount you give to charity each year.

I give quite a bit because I have compassion for those that suffer. How much do you give? Most Liberals that I know are big on giving away other people’s money but they are pretty damn stingy when it comes to their money.

]Since our sons have moved out of the house every Thanksgiving my wife and work to hand out free meals to the poor. We have done that several times at Christmas also in the last few years. Have you ever worked giving food to the poor? If you haven't does that mean that you like to see people suffer?

Since I have a monthly income of about £15 no, I don't give money to charity at the moment... What spare change etc I can afford I give away, usually to homeless people and buskers. I'd rather give it to the NHS though.

Your problem is that someone told you once that government is BAD and always BAD and nasty, oo-er! Government! Nasty! Politicians! Faceless! Beaureaucracy! Evil! And you just stick to it blindly.

All of your claimed charitable works are very well and good, but all they do is prove to me that you know there is a problem, and that these people need help! Yet you oppose your government helping them, you actually think that it is a BAD THING to provide other human beings with a reasonable standard of healthcare. Tell me, if people are deserving of free meals, why are they not deserving of healthcare? Why do they not deserve any healthcare whatsoever? You'll say that its 'your' money and they haven't worked for it, despite knowing full well that anyone who WANTS to work right now is still going to have difficulty finding work. Hell, you want personal example? I know several adults with degrees from good universities who have never been unemployed in their life and who spend 8 or 9 hours a day working on finding a job, but there is NOTHING GOING. Some of them work far, far harder on finding work than someone with a job. And you have the disgusting ability to sit there saying that they don't deserve healthcare, if they have cancer, they should just DIE because it's 'their choice' not to work or because you have an ideological obsession with destroying government involvement in anything, as if that has EVER led to anything but problems in every country its implemented in.

Its as if you actually WANT to go back to the dark ages, or at least Victorian times, where children starved on the streets, people died aged 30 and labour was utterly horrendous. Well THAT'S what no government limitation on employers and NO government security provisions led to. Your argument about 'liberals this' and 'liberals that' firstly makes you sound like you are too dense to actually be pointed and well mannered (only fools make vast sweeping generalisations, especially about the people they are debating with) but secondly just shows your lack of even a basic understanding of the principals of left-wing ideology, not that you have probably ever considered it as anything more than just a bunch of stupid hippy students who want to scrounge off the government and not do a blind bit of work. You use liberal and socialist as two interchangeable terms, which not only has the effect of crashing these two utterly different ideologies headlong into each other, creating the vast train wreck that are the arguments against socialised healthcare, but also demonstrates that you don't even know what your opponents are arguing in favour of. Are we liberals, flash? Are we socialists? Are we communists? I don't know, maybe you could stick an all-encompassing, supposedly damning label on me so that I know where I should always stand 100% of the time? As it is, I'm getting so many labels thrown out that I'm not sure whether I'm a socialist, a liberal, a miser or a ruthless atheist baby-murderer. If you could stick to one, so my tiny liberal mind can cope, it would be much appreciated.

Not only do you say that liberals are 'all' mean with their money, but you make the hilarious insinuation that private charity can solve all problems, which as we know from looking at the USA and Africa is quite patently wrong! Cultures, attitudes and governments are what change countries, not shifting money about. You can't buy an opinion and you can't buy a culture. YES I'm big on giving away other people's money, YES I am. I think it is a good thing, flash. Call it theft if you like. I don't give a damn. I will quite happily pay high tax in the knowledge that I live in a better, healthier, cleaner, safer country for it. So maybe I'm evil, maybe I'm a thief, but what I want to do is make my country BETTER, with BETTER services where people pool their resources and work together to create a BETTER place to live. The best way that humanity has found so far of pooling their resources is government, so either you can go and live in a hut in the wilderness on your own to get away from the government or you can live like a civilised person, supporting your tax money being used for a good cause. And last time I looked, saving lives through healthcare is a good cause.

[flash]

Since I have a monthly income of about £15 no, I don't give money to charity at the moment... What spare change etc I can afford I give away, usually to homeless people and buskers. I'd rather give it to the NHS though.

Your problem is that someone told you once that government is BAD and always BAD and nasty, oo-er! Government! Nasty! Politicians! Faceless! Beaureaucracy! Evil! And you just stick to it blindly.

All of your claimed charitable works are very well and good, but all they do is prove to me that you know there is a problem, and that these people need help! Yet you oppose your government helping them, you actually think that it is a BAD THING to provide other human beings with a reasonable standard of healthcare. Tell me, if people are deserving of free meals, why are they not deserving of healthcare? Why do they not deserve any healthcare whatsoever? You'll say that its 'your' money and they haven't worked for it, despite knowing full well that anyone who WANTS to work right now is still going to have difficulty finding work. Hell, you want personal example? I know several adults with degrees from good universities who have never been unemployed in their life and who spend 8 or 9 hours a day working on finding a job, but there is NOTHING GOING. Some of them work far, far harder on finding work than someone with a job. And you have the disgusting ability to sit there saying that they don't deserve healthcare, if they have cancer, they should just DIE because it's 'their choice' not to work or because you have an ideological obsession with destroying government involvement in anything, as if that has EVER led to anything but problems in every country its implemented in. Its as if you actually WANT to go back to the dark ages, or at least Victorian times, where children starved on the streets, people died aged 30 and labour was utterly horrendous. Well THAT'S what no government limitation on employers and NO government security provisions led to. Your argument about 'liberals this' and 'liberals that' firstly makes you sound like you are too dense to actually be pointed and well mannered (only fools make vast sweeping generalisations, especially about the people they are debating with) but secondly just shows your lack of even a basic understanding of the principals of left-wing ideology, not that you have probably ever considered it as anything more than just a bunch of stupid hippy students who want to scrounge off the government and not do a blind bit of work. You use liberal and socialist as two interchangeable terms, which not only has the effect of crashing these two utterly different ideologies headlong into each other, creating the vast train wreck that are the arguments against socialised healthcare, but also demonstrates that you don't even know what your opponents are arguing in favour of. Are we liberals, flash? Are we socialists? Are we communists? I don't know, maybe you could stick an all-encompassing, supposedly damning label on me so that I know where I should always stand 100% of the time? As it is, I'm getting so many labels thrown out that I'm not sure whether I'm a socialist, a liberal, a miser or a ruthless atheist baby-murderer. If you could stick to one, so my tiny liberal mind can cope, it would be much appreciated. Not only do you say that liberals are 'all' mean with their money, but you make the hilarious insinuation that private charity can solve all problems, which as we know from looking at the USA and Africa is quite patently wrong! Cultures, attitudes and governments are what change countries, not shifting money about. You can't buy an opinion and you can't buy a culture. YES I'm big on giving away other people's money, YES I am. I think it is a good thing, flash. Call it theft if you like. I don't give a damn. I will quite happily pay high tax in the knowledge that I live in a better, healthier, cleaner, safer country for it. So maybe I'm evil, maybe I'm a thief, but what I want to do is make my country BETTER, with BETTER services where people pool their resources and work together to create a BETTER place to live. The best way that humanity has found so far of pooling their resources is government, so either you can go and live in a hut in the wilderness on your own to get away from the government or you can live like a civilised person, supporting your tax money being used for a good cause. And last time I looked, saving lives through healthcare is a good cause.

Could you do me a favor? Go back and divide that last thing into paragraphs so that it is readable.

Then I can respond to it.

[Tantal]

All of your claimed charitable works are very well and good, but all they do is prove to me that you know there is a problem, and that these people need help! Yet you oppose your government helping them, you actually think that it is a BAD THING to provide other human beings with a reasonable standard of healthcare. Tell me, if people are deserving of free meals, why are they not deserving of healthcare? Why do they not deserve any healthcare whatsoever?

Dougie, I think that Flash's point is that he has a charitable heart and will devote both his time and money to help those in need. What he WILL NOT do is force his neighbor, at gunpoint, to help them as well.

[flash]

Since I have a monthly income of about £15 no, I don't give money to charity at the moment... What spare change etc I can afford I give away, usually to homeless people and buskers. I'd rather give it to the NHS though.

Ok then. I kind of figured you never gave much to charity. Typical Liberal mindset. Everybody's money except your own.

You are in good company. The Obama's hardly gave anything to charity either. Although John Kerry is one of the riches men in America he gave very little. Two of your fellow Liberals.

Your problem is that someone told you once that government is BAD and always BAD and nasty, oo-er! Government! Nasty! Politicians! Faceless! Beaureaucracy! Evil! And you just stick to it blindly.

The Founding Fathers are the ones that told us to not to trust the government and to be self sufficient.

I also learned that they were right after paying a ton of money in taxes in my life and getting very little in return for the money.

All of your claimed charitable works are very well and good, but all they do is prove to me that you know there is a problem, and that these people need help! Yet you oppose your government helping them, you actually think that it is a BAD THING to provide other human beings with a reasonable standard of healthcare. Tell me, if people are deserving of free meals, why are they not deserving of healthcare?

The difference is that when I do charitable contributions I do it out of the goodness of my heart. When the government steals my money they do it by the force of arms.

The difference is critical. In one case I decided for myself who I want to help. In the other case some stupid politician, quite often to sell his representation to the highest bidder, decides for me.

Unlike you Euros I don't have a hive mentality. I believe in freedom and means deciding for myself who I want to help.

Why do they not deserve any healthcare whatsoever? You'll say that its 'your' money and they haven't worked for it, despite knowing full well that anyone who WANTS to work right now is still going to have difficulty finding work

Anybody can get health care in America. They can go out and buy it or if they are real poor the state will provide. My conscience is clear.

It is not my responsibility to provide them with health care. It is their responsibility.

You have to remember that since about the late 1980s there has been very low unemployment in the States. Because of your Socialists system your unemployment was higher but it was low in the States.

In good times, like for the last 20 years, I feel no responsibility towards providing for anybody. In bad times like this I will give to charity.

Hell, you want personal example? I know several adults with degrees from good universities who have never been unemployed in their life and who spend 8 or 9 hours a day working on finding a job, but there is NOTHING GOING. Some of them work far, far harder on finding work than someone with a job. And you have the disgusting ability to sit there saying that they don't deserve healthcare, if they have cancer, they should just DIE because it's 'their choice' not to work or because you have an ideological obsession with destroying government involvement in anything, as if that has EVER led to anything but problems in every country its implemented in.

Sounds like some hippies that got a useless degree.

The real answer is that if your government wasn’t collecting about half of your GNP then the economy would be in much better shape. It is the high cost of government that is stifling your economy and causing high unemployment.

Its as if you actually WANT to go back to the dark ages, or at least Victorian times, where children starved on the streets, people died aged 30 and labour was utterly horrendous. Well THAT'S what no government limitation on employers and NO government security provisions led to. Your argument about 'liberals this' and 'liberals that' firstly makes you sound like you are too dense to actually be pointed and well mannered (only fools make vast sweeping generalisations, especially about the people they are debating with) but secondly just shows your lack of even a basic understanding of the principals of left-wing ideology, not that you have probably ever considered it as anything more than just a bunch of stupid hippy students who want to scrounge off the government and not do a blind bit of work. You use liberal and socialist as two interchangeable terms, which not only has the effect of crashing these two utterly different ideologies headlong into each other, creating the vast train wreck that are the arguments against socialised healthcare, but also demonstrates that you don't even know what your opponents are arguing in favour of. Are we liberals, flash? Are we socialists? Are we communists? I don't know, maybe you could stick an all-encompassing, supposedly damning label on me so that I know where I should always stand 100% of the time? As it is, I'm getting so many labels thrown out that I'm not sure whether I'm a socialist, a liberal, a miser or a ruthless atheist baby-murderer. If you could stick to one, so my tiny liberal mind can cope, it would be much appreciated.

I want people to be responsible for their own welfare.

What you call dense is actually an articulation of personal responsibility.

The worst problem I have in my life is government interference. It cost more to pay off the government each month than any other expense. They also take away my liberties and are generally a pain in the ass.

It has to be even worse in your country. The government is not a solution to anything, is a problem.

To me Socialism and Liberalism is a disease that destroys everything worth having because is produces a very low common denominator.

Not only do you say that liberals are 'all' mean with their money, but you make the hilarious insinuation that private charity can solve all problems, which as we know from looking at the USA and Africa is quite patently wrong! Cultures, attitudes and governments are what change countries, not shifting money about. You can't buy an opinion and you can't buy a culture. YES I'm big on giving away other people's money, YES I am. I think it is a good thing, flash. Call it theft if you like. I don't give a damn. I will quite happily pay high tax in the knowledge that I live in a better, healthier, cleaner, safer country for it. So maybe I'm evil, maybe I'm a thief, but what I want to do is make my country BETTER, with BETTER services where people pool their resources and work together to create a BETTER place to live. The best way that humanity has found so far of pooling their resources is government, so either you can go and live in a hut in the wilderness on your own to get away from the government or you can live like a civilised person, supporting your tax money being used for a good cause. And last time I looked, saving lives through healthcare is a good cause.

I never said charity can solve all the problems. However, it will solve the problems I want it to solve.

For instance, there is a food bank at my church. The food is used to help people out when they are having a hard time. I don’t mind giving to the bank because I know the food is going to a worthy cause.

There is a big difference between that charity and the intense lobbying to provide food stamps to illegal aliens and third generation welfare recipients.

If you really wanted to make your country better then you should lobby to get your government off the backs of the people. Lobby to reduce the size of government. Lobby to restore basic freedoms like the right to keep and bear arms. Don’t give up your freedom for common European good.

[flash]

Here is a current story about your wonderful NHS. I don't think you are getting that good of care for all that money it cost, do you?

'Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed - Telegraph

'Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed

One million NHS patients have been the victims of appalling care in hospitals across Britain, according to a major report released today.

In the last six years, the Patients Association claims hundreds of thousands have suffered from poor standards of nursing, often with 'neglectful, demeaning, painful and sometimes downright cruel' treatment.

The charity has disclosed a horrifying catalogue of elderly people left in pain, in soiled bed clothes, denied adequate food and drink, and suffering from repeatedly cancelled operations, missed diagnoses and dismissive staff.

The Patients Association said the dossier proves that while the scale of the scandal at Mid-Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust - where up to 1,200 people died through failings in urgent care - was a one off, there are repeated examples they have uncovered of the same appalling standards throughout the NHS.

While the criticisms cover all aspects of hospital care, the treatment and attitude of nurses stands out as a repeated theme across almost all of the cases.

snip

[Expounder]

Here is a current story about your wonderful NHS. I don't think you are getting that good of care for all that money it cost, do you?

'Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed - Telegraph

'Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed

One million NHS patients have been the victims of appalling care in hospitals across Britain, according to a major report released today.

In the last six years, the Patients Association claims hundreds of thousands have suffered from poor standards of nursing, often with 'neglectful, demeaning, painful and sometimes downright cruel' treatment.

The charity has disclosed a horrifying catalogue of elderly people left in pain, in soiled bed clothes, denied adequate food and drink, and suffering from repeatedly cancelled operations, missed diagnoses and dismissive staff.

The Patients Association said the dossier proves that while the scale of the scandal at Mid-Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust - where up to 1,200 people died through failings in urgent care - was a one off, there are repeated examples they have uncovered of the same appalling standards throughout the NHS.

While the criticisms cover all aspects of hospital care, the treatment and attitude of nurses stands out as a repeated theme across almost all of the cases.

snip

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The report of the patients care body is disturbing and unacceptable. Although 93% of elderly patients have reported good or excellent treatment by the NHS, there is no room for complacency. Most of the incidents involved individual nurses or carers who clearly should not be in nursing and should be thrown out of the profession.

This report doesn't make a case for private medicine, but case of ensuring the suitability of people in the nursing profession. To this end, the report has served it's function and will shock the NHS into taking action against the uncaring perpetrators employed by the organisation now and in the future.

There are no doubt many similar cases to be uncovered within the US health care system which go unreported, and many families of elderly patients with shocking stories of neglect and abuse. An in depth analysis of the system would no doubt discover similar uncaring individuals being employed just to take the pay cheque.

The links above on US health care can't all be wrong and shows it failing it's most vulnerable. Britain has a system which with all of it's flaws which is universally popular. There are some ideological objections to the NHS but they are a minority, and at least there's no cover up of any failings within the NHS or of facing up to them.

The Tory Telegraphs prominent headline reporting on this subject is aimed at rubbishing the NHS, while the actual report was designed to bring failings to the attention of the NHS and it's staff to eradicate.